Comment on Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’ by krissmith777.
@Sean Pitman,
Indeed. There were giants before and after the Flood. Note also that the author of Genesis explains very clearly that all human and land animal life, save those on the Ark, was destroyed by the Flood. You’re trying to make the author seem inconsistent beyond the fact that you’re distorting the text beyond what it is really saying.
Same thing can be said about you though. There is nothing in the context that even implies that the Nephilim that existed after were different from the ones who existed before. You’re reading that into the text despite it not even being there.
Even if I were wrong on this detail, there is the matter that Moses (the writter of Genesis) talks about pre-flood peoples and their decendants in the present-tense. Read Carefully:
Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play stringed instruments and pipes.(Genesis 4: 20-21 NIV)
To confirm this, I looked up the Hebrew and found that the writter of Genesis in 4:20 used the word for “dwell” which is ישב (pronounced as “yashab”) and used it in the “Active Participle.” The same is true of the Hebrew word for “to play” which is תָּפַשׂ is also used in the same way:
Link: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=4&v=1&t=KJV#conc/21 (Click on “Tense” where you see the verb for “dwell,” and then from there click on “active participle.”..You sill see the explanations for “active” and “passive” participles.)
Now, why would Moses (who lived between somewhere between 1500 and 1290 write about pre-flood people’s in the present? It cannot be argued that their decendants were on the Ark for two reasons: 1) The Bible is clear that those people were decendants of Cain (Genesis 4:16), and 2) the Bible is also clear that Noah and his family were decendents of Seth (Genesis 5:3-32).
Floods can create organically rich soil as well. Also, since there were no great oceans before the Flood, the waters of the Flood were not likely to be very salty. Salinity has increased since the Flood due to water run-off and erosion of the continents…
It is true that fresh water can deposite organic material, but your claim that the there were no salt water bodies or great ocreans before the flood is contradicted by the Bible itself Genesis 1:10 implies otherwise. And since many Creationistsimply that the land was what we now call pengea, that would imply that like today, there was more water covering most of the earth’s surface from the get-go.
Your assertion that salt water was a a later affect is not a testable hypothesis, and the Bible doesn’t say there was no salt water before, nor does it contradict it.
What is causing the sea floor to spread slowly over hundreds of millions of years? Are the convection currents the result of or cause of the drift?
This is like asking “Is water flow the result of rock erosion?” The molton liquid under the crust (like water) is just that: A liquid. The molton liquid is the remnant of what the earth was made of. The molton liquid is below the curst of the earth, and therefore it was there BEFORE the crust. As water naturally has currents, the molton liquid would also have currents…even before the crust formed. Therefore most liklely the currents are NOT the result of the plates moving, but the other way around.
There really is no known viable mechanism for such slow drift.
Considering that Young Earth Creationists (many at least) were the first to insist that Plate Tectonics began at a rapid pace during the flood and slowed since, it’s actually kind of funny that you’re saying this.
Only about 2 billion metric tons of sediment are subducted or “recycled†each year leaving some 28 billion metric tons to build up on the ocean floor each year. This means that the current ocean sediment (~10^17 tons) would have been deposited in just ~15 million years.
The present erosion rates are somewhat due to the present rate of mountains forming. The continents are much more dynamic than you give them credit for. And it isn’t just recycled matarial, but ALSO NEW material that gets introduced from the earth’s mantle that continually maintain the continents.
Saying the rate of erosion is much greater than the rate of recycled materials and the materials from the interior of the earth can replace them would also beg the question: If that is true, then how do volcanic islands (like Hawaii) manage to form and remain above the furface for more than a couple million years. The oldest inhabited Hawaiian Island is 3.3 million years old, and the Island of Maui (the youngest island) is 1.3 milion years old. Assuming that your figure is correct and considering that they are MUCH SMALLER than any continent, it’s unthinkable that they wouldn’t have have already have been submerged. — Lisianski Island is between 19.9 and 20.6 million years old. If the rate of erosion would have caused the continents to have been eroded away the continents in 15 million years, then why can’t it even completely erode a small island (much smaller than a continent) in 20 million years? By all rights, it should be long gone.
krissmith777 Also Commented
Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@Professor Kent,
I’m disappointed, but not surprised, that Dr. Pitman chose to ignore this problem. According to Pitman, plate tectonics moved very rapidly during the flood and then slowed down, which creates the dilemma Kris has spoken to. The massive ocean basin and its seamounts could not have existed prior to the flood, but how could they possibly have formed in such little time during the flood itself–or during the following year?
In my judgement, it was the strongest point I made in that comment.
Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@ Professor Kent
How bizarre that I argue for the superiority of the Bible, and Bob, rather than joining me, says that Richard Dawkins–of all people, being one of the most antagonistic toward the Bible–is on my side! WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE THAT CLAIM TO DEFEND SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISM?
The way some of out fellow christians associate others with positions they just do not like with “hard” atheists like Richard Dawkins is nothing more than an ad hominem. — In a different thread on a different website, one person I was talking to kept bringing up Richard Dawkins. It was “Richard Dawkins says..” “Richard Dawkins claims…” It was all a tactic to simply dismiss what I was saying simply because he thought Dawkins would agree with me…even slightly. But there are major problems with such tactics: 1) Richard Dawkins speaks for Richard Dawkins, not for me. 2) I don’t even care what Richard Dawkins says, and our fellow Christians who worry about what he says should have better things to worry about. There seems to be a mentality here that because Dawkins takes a certain position, that we should take the opposite extreme, but that doesn’t even follow.
Let the hard atheists like Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennet and Christopher Hitchens say what they want…It makes no difference to me.
Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@Sean Pitman,
You said before that overall rate of erosion and and sedimentation world wide along with the replacement of the materials is constant… I know that. But you keep assuming that the rate of today is the same as 200 million years ago, and quite frankly, you have no basis for such an assumption…and really, there is reason to believe otherwise as well.
Geologists point out that the landmasses of today are much more mountainous and more rugged than in the past….and the mountanous topography is a excelerator to the rates of erosion…Now, if this is true, then that would mean that today the overall rate of erosion (and the addition of sediments to the ocean basins) would right now be at an all time high…As such, the current rate of sedimentary deposition cannot be used as a reliable clock to date the ocean floor. (Davis Young, Christianity & The Age Of The Earth, pages 128-131)
Reputable Creation Scientists give vastly different estimates of the sea floor accumulation. You give the estimate of 15 million years. — Henry Morris gives the estimate of 75 million years (Scientific Creationism, pages 155, 156) — Stewart E. Nevins gives the estimate of 30 million years (Link: http://www.icr.org/article/evolution-ocean-says-no/ ) — Russel Humphries’ estimate is 12 million years (Link: http://creation.com/evidence-for-a-young-world ) — With all these vastly differing estimates on the parts of creation scientists, it makes me wonder about the basis of their data…especially since it’s the same argument. It’s not as if we have numerous dating methods being used and all disagreeing…Rather, it’s that we seem to have the same method being used and still disagreeing.
–But I think I’ve found the mentality behind your argument. Stewart Nevins, on his page about the sedimentation of the sea floor, says:
In only 30 million years assuming constant rate of erosion all the ocean sediments could have accumulated. This age does not square with the over 1 billion year age assumed by evolutionary uniformitarian geologists. (Bold, his)
So, his argument is that since today’s rate would have deposited more, that therefore the principal of uniformity is wrong.. I dare say anyone who claims that geologists think “rates” have always been the same for EVERYTHING doesn’t understand the principle…At least, not in it’s current form. The principle he is refering to is known as “Substantive Uniformitarianism,” and modern geology rejects that. — Geologists now use a different principle called “Methodological Uniformitarianism”; that is processes around today have happened in the past…whether it be a storm, a mudslide, a volcanic eruption, etcetera..They may happen at different rates, but the same phenomena that happen today leave a finger print, and we can identify a geologic formation from the past with a similar finger print. (For more reading on this: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1979/JASA9-79Young.html )
Recent Comments by krissmith777
Scientists ‘potentially skeptical’ of evolution need not apply
I do not know all the details, but I do think that the University is handling this situation quite badly. In the actual news article itself drom the Hufington post, some scientists are quoted as saying that they may as well have a “Creation Museum” with him around… Logical Fallacy: “Slippery Slope.”
Why those who hate the Bible love blind-faith Christians
@Sean Pitman,
At the very least, global migration under ideal conditions, even of sloths, seems plausible (and I think unavoidable given the doubling time for sloth populations under ideal circumstances) – certainly not “impossible†as you’re trying to suggest.
Well, for the record, I said “it would have been difficult, if not impossible.” Perhaps it was possible.
After all, even sloths can move up to a mile in less than four hours when they want to…
They can move faster under some conditions. But it is my understanding that even though they could, they tend not to. They tend to pick up the pace only when necessary; like when they are fleeing from a predator, they can move up to 15 feet a minute, and even then they burn a lot of energy while doing it. On the grund, their maximum speed, however, is 5 feet a minute. (Link: http://www.animalcorner.co.uk/rainforests/sloth.html )
— Perhaps a journey of such a route could have been possible under certain conditions. Who knows?
But, what I am more concerned about is not the journey, but rather a trail that they would have left behind from Eastern Turkey to North America. I’m more interested in what they would have left behind on their migration to indicate that they were there. For a while, they should have at least had a population in those regions… Perhaps they still would have decendants in Russian forests, or skeletal remains from those who did not make it.
Why those who hate the Bible love blind-faith Christians
@Professor Kent
Thus, we cannot expect each successive generation to continue a straight-line march across the globe for thousands or even hundreds of years. In their normal daily movements, they might move 5 miles in a year…but not in a straight line. We have been reassured that even a “small slow tree sloth†can migrate at a 12-mile-per-year pace across the globe. I don’t think so!
It would require movement in areas of the world that they are not adapted to. It would have been difficult, if not impossible, for the sloth to move from Eastern Turkey, across the Bering Straight land bridge, then from Alaska and then to South America…But, for a moment, lets suppose for a moment that they succeeded…
The sloths tend to live between 10 and 20 years, and in that time they tend to have a single newborn per year. If we go with the conservative number that would mean that at minimum, they probably reproduce 10 newborns within 10 years, but it is also true that the newborns tend to have a high mortality rate within the very first year of their lives. – There is no statistic at the actual death rate in the first year before they have a chance to reproduce, but since there obviously was a net gain in the population (since the flood), that allows the minimum survival rate to be 40%. This would mean that if they birthed 10 newborn sloths, then a maximum of 6 die. If 2 males and two females survived, and if they in turn also had 2 males and 2 females that survived, there would constantly be a doubled population of sloths: The first generation (from the ark) which would be 2 sloths would therefore lead to 4 which in turn leads to 8, and then to 16, and so on and so forth.
[The mistake I made in a former comment was allowing the survival rate being 20% which, now that I think of it, would have only produced only two surviving sloths constantly. It had to have been more.]
Add into the equation that it is over 3,000 miles from Eastern Turkey to the Bering Strait which leads to North America. – Using Sean’s estimate that they may have traveled 12 miles in a [year], that would indicate that they made it to the outskirts of North America in 250 years. With this in mind, one is left to wonder about a population of sloths in modern Russia which should have been considerable…or at least noticeable, though it is possible there may have been times when their birth rates and survival rates would have dropped a bit, though that doesn’t clear the problem, and there should be evidence of such a migration from Eastern Turkey. – Also, when one factors in the time sloths spend sleeping in a day (15 to 18 hours a day), the idea that they could have traveled 12 miles a year is a stretch. And that goes without mentioning that they almost never get out of the trees. That begs the question of how far they were willing to walk over treeless territory until they would find more trees.
Why those who hate the Bible love blind-faith Christians
In my experience, those who hate the Bible hate any kind of Christian, not just people of blind faith.
But I don’t think anyone here is really insisting on blind faith, I think they just don’t want to use a certain sort of “test tube” for God. –There is evidence that the Bible is divinely inspired, which is why I hold it in high esteem. Even in the areas that would seem to have some “weakness” of archeological evidence, there is still some real strength that warrents belief. The profecy of the “cutting-off” of the messiah in Daniel 9:24-27 actually gives a time-frame that Jesus really seems to match, and as such I see true divine inspiration in the book of Daniel (which is actually my favorite book of the Bible). Even if Daniel were written in 164 BC, as a lot of skeptics believe, no uninspires writter would ever know such a detail. So, despite my differences of opinion of interpretation, there is no doubt in my mind that God did in fact inspire the Bible. This itself, in my judgement, is good, imperical evidence for not just the Bible, but also God himself.
But, as said before, the problem others here have is reducing God to a “test tube.” As a Christian myself, I am not crazy about that. — You ended your post with a good quote from Galileo Galilei, and so I shall end this comment with another from him:
The Bible teaches how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go.
Michigan Conference takes substantial action in LSU conflict
@krissmith777: Great liberal minds always think the same, they can judge the outcome. Outcome based decisions ignore principled decisions. Christ on the cross could not see through the grave, a great example of a principled decision!Thank you Michigan for standing on principle. (Quote)
I am not a liberal.
