@Professor Kent: After all, what is …

Comment on Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’ by Sean Pitman.

@Professor Kent:

After all, what is there besides empirical evidence upon which to base a rational faith in the Bible as the true “Word of God” among many competing options? I’ve asked you this question many many times and you continually avoid answering it with a direct response to the actual question. Why not at least tell me what you would tell a Latter-day Saint or a Hindu or a Muslim as to why the Bible is superior to what they consider to be the true “Word of God”? – something that might have a chance at convincing someone who is sincerely and honestly looking for the truth?… – Sean Pitman

I’ve answered this. Several times. In short, there is ample evidence to support the Bible and Christianity, including fulfilled prophecy, the lives and testimony of the apostles, archeology, the impact of the Bible on personal lives, and so forth. All of this is “empirical evidence” that goes beyond what is needed to establish the validity of scripture. The other religions are confronted with serious shortcomings on these issues, in my opinion, although I really don’t care to publicly besmirch them with specific details.

You see, you do in fact appeal to empirical evidence to support your own belief in the superiority of the Bible’s claim to be the true Word of God. Without this empirical basis, there would be no rational reason to present the Bible as superior to the claims of anything or anyone else.

Therefore, why do you argue with me about the need for an empirical basis for faith in the credibility of the Bible? You’re making this very same argument yourself. It is just that you prefer a more limited set of empirical evidences compared to me. That’s really the only difference as far as I can tell. Otherwise, you really have no qualitative difference in the basis of your faith vs. mine. Both are based on and even require empirical evidence.

Your reliance on naturalism to validate the Bible, using “objective empirical evidence with predictive value” (my quotes) from DNA and fossils, is anti-scripture, anti-Christian, and anti-SDA. The “weight of evidence” validated the Bible long before http://www.detectingdesign.com was conceived. Don’t you recognize this?

The “weight of evidence” changes, or at least has the potential to change, as the new information comes to light. One cannot simply sit back and say, “What was good enough for my parents is good enough for me.” Such a position puts you out of touch with modern questions and the modern perceived weight of evidence. Prophecy, by itself, may convince you of the Bible’s credibility. However, this is not likely to be the case for many other young people who also value modern scientific evidence which seems to challenge the credibility of the Bible quite heavily.

Even you do not believe in the SDA position on a global Flood, arguing that it was only “global in effect, not necessarily in extent.” That simply isn’t the SDA position on the global nature of the Flood. You also interpret the writings and inspiration of Mrs. White differently than does the SDA Church. In other words, you yourself doubt the credibility of many of the interpretations of the SDA Church when it comes to what the Bible is actually trying to tell us about certain realities.

The same thing is true of many other groups of people who interpret the Bible differently than does the SDA Church. The Catholics, for example, while also believing that the Bible has a Divine origin, interpret many aspects of it quite differently than does the SDA Church. This is fine and all, it just isn’t SDA and no one with Catholic views should be expected to promote these contrary views while in the employ of the SDA Church…

The SDA Church therefore has more than a right, it has a duty to hire only those who are honestly willing to actively promote what the SDA Church believes, as an organization, to be its fundamental ideals. The Church has made its position very clear on its position on origins and what it expects its paid representatives to teach our young people in our own schools – i.e., “We, along with Seventh-day Adventist parents, expect students to receive a thorough, balanced, and scientifically rigorous exposure to and affirmation of our historic belief in a literal, recent six-day creation, even as they are educated to understand and assess competing philosophies of origins that dominate scientific discussion in the contemporary world.”

http://adventist.org/beliefs/statements/main-stat55.html

If a professor cannot, in good conscience, provide a “scientifically rigorous” defense of six-day creation, that professor, like a professor who believes in Catholic rather than SDA doctrines, should seek employment elsewhere…

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com

Sean Pitman Also Commented

Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@Phil Mills:

One of these frequent posters claims to be a Young Earth Creationists, but believes in creation based on what he refers to as “faith.” One could get the idea that he fears that anything scientifically shown to support creation is actually bad since it would then somehow require less faith to believe. His faith, however, is more akin to the Catholic student who is reported to have said, “Faith is what you believe that you know ain’t so.”

This is not Biblical faith. Neither is it the faith of the Adventist pioneers. It certainly doesn’t build faith, it actually destroys genuine faith. This pseudofaith more closely resembles a mere superstitious belief. It is no surprise that agnostics, evolutionists, and other doubters have such an affinity for those who possess this kind of “faith” on this site. Why wouldn’t they agree with it. It doesn’t threaten them in any way. It bolsters their ranks. It confirms their unbelief since they already believe faith is unreasonable.

I couldn’t have said it better myself…

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@Professor Kent:

Of course it’s a good thing; I never said it was bad. The problem is when you and Pitman maintain that empirical evidence from nature is essential to validate the Bible–and that is heresy and blasphemy.

You yourself made this “blasphemous” claim when you listed off several empirical evidences, like fulfilled prophecy (based on empirical investigation of real history), as reasons why you believe the Bible to be superior to other books claiming to be the true Word of God.

Here is what you wrote:

In short, there is ample evidence to support the Bible and Christianity, including fulfilled prophecy, the lives and testimony of the apostles, archeology, the impact of the Bible on personal lives, and so forth. All of this is “empirical evidence” that goes beyond what is needed to establish the validity of scripture. The other religions are confronted with serious shortcomings on these issues, in my opinion… – Professor Kent

Now, if the Holy Spirit is enough, as the Latter-day Saints believe, to lead you into all truth without having to use your brain, why did you appeal to these empirical evidences to support your belief or faith in the superior credibility of the Bible vs. other competing options held in higher regard by other faiths? Why didn’t you just appeal to the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking directly to you as evidence enough?

So, the argument here isn’t really over the need for an empirical basis for one’s faith in the Bible before it can be considered rational. You yourself appeal to such. You admit to the need for an empirical argument as the basis for choosing the Bible over other competing options. You’ve made this argument several times now. Therefore, the real argument here is in regard to your notion that the empirical basis, or “weight of empirical evidence” for faith never changes or needs to be re-examined in any way over time – despite the discovery of new evidence and information?

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@krissmith777:

You missed my overall point. The first sentence I quoted from it was: The rates at which sediments accumulate vary enormously, owing to the natural variability of the processes that produce and transport sediments. — The rates vary greatly depending on the conditions… Your argument pre-supposes that the rate has not changed, and you have not demonstrated that it has. — And frankly, it doesn’t have to be.

You misunderstand the “rate” that the author is talking about here. This rate is not the overall rate of ocean sedimentation which is in fact fairly constant at ~30 billion tons per year. I’ve already tried to explain this to you, but the variability your reference is talking about is the local variability that is indeed due to many factors of sediment transport within the oceans themselves. This local variability does not affect the overall sediment load that is consistently delivered to the oceans.

— David E. Thomas says it much better than I ever could:

…much sediment never gets to the ocean floor, but is trapped instead on continental slopes and shelves, or in huge river deltas. Over the years, some of these continental slopes can accumulate several kilometers of sediment, while others can even become part of mountain ranges in continental plate-to-plate collisions. Neither erosion nor subduction are expected to be constant processes over millions of years, and they are simply not good clocks.

Indeed, and my calculations take into account all the sediment currently in the oceans, to include the sediment on continental slopes and shelves and river deltas. The total amount of sediment, taking all of these factors into account, is only 10^17 tons. That tonnage can be explained in just 15 million years. That’s a huge problem for mainstream theories of plate tectonics and the proposed age of ocean basins. Your arguments about the variability of sedimentation for different parts of the ocean floor are completely irrelevant to explaining the total tonnage that is currently in the oceans regardless of its location.

I heard one geologist call it a “crude” dating method. Looks more related to “relative dating,” not “absolute dating.”

Again, you’re looking at local rates of accumulation over time, not the overall rate of accumulation over time. You’re confusing two separate concepts here. They aren’t the same thing.

Again, that is completely irrelevant to the point that the total amount of sediment, the total tonnage that is current in the oceans, irrespective of its location within the ocean basins, can be explained given just 15 million years… – Sean Pitman

And the paper I linked a while ago using the current rate gave the figure of 100 million years: (“At a rate of 0.5 cm (.2 in)/1000 years, it takes only 100 million years to accumulate 500 m (1600 ft) of sediment,”)

Indeed – the local rate of sediment accumulation on some areas of the ocean floor may indeed be this slow. Again, however, this is completely irrelevant to the fact that the total sediment contained by all the oceans in the whole world, to include the sediment that is on or close to the continent shelves, is far far too low for them to be nearly as old as mainstream scientists propose…

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


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