Comment on New NAD president: ‘I love you’ doesn’t mean we won’t deal with issues by Lydian Belknap.
9-19-10
Ken says:
“On the other hand science operates independently of faith or non faith as an universal tool of objective inquiry. That is why I trust its non biased focus.â€
Sean says:
“And how do you know that the Bible is the “living Word of God†without the use of at least some form of human reasoning from the available evidence? – i.e., a form of scientific reasoning? How can you know that you have accurately picked out the true Word of God from the many competing options? Upon what is your choice in the Bible based?â€
Ken: as I have said before, I am NOT a scientist and I’m not going to even begin to try to convince you (or Sean) about anything from science. To begin with–I can’t, and if I could I wouldn’t. My faith is not founded on “science†but on the living Word of God. (And, to be honest, the statement that science has a “non biased focus†is questionable from my point of view.)
(I originally wrote this to Ken last night and when I was getting ready to post it Sean’s question popped up.)
(Sean, as an Adventist, I’m sure you are familiar with the following prophecy–as well as many others in the Bible and, frankly, i’m am somewhat surprised at your question but I’m sure you had a good reason for asking it. I have no way of knowing how much of Bible Prophecy Ken is aware of so wrote it from the viewpoint that he is not familiar with these prophecies so tried to write it with that in mind. Since it was originally written for Ken I’m going to post it just as I wrote it.)
My answer to both of your questions is founded on one thing–Bible Prophecy– and I hope you will humor a very old woman by finding a Bible and following along what I have to say. (I use a NKJV study Bible)
Turn to the book of Daniel, chapter 2. (In Chapter 1 Daniel and his three companions were taken captives by Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon–a person long ridiculed by scientist as never have even existed until archeology, once again, proved them wrong.)
Please follow along in the Bible:
The four young men had since been educated in the best schools of Babylon (Chapter 1) and were now considered part of the “wise men†who attended the king.
One night the king had a dream which he could not remember but it impressed him so much that it woke him up from a sound sleep. He was sure the dream was something important but he didn’t know what. He immediately summoned all his wise men to demand that they not only tell him what the dream MEANT but what the dream WAS. (verse 5) For some reason Daniel and his three friends were not among those called. (I can understand why God kept him away from that first meeting with the king.)
The wise men protested that no king had ever asked such a thing and anyway, “only the gods could know that.†The king was furious and commanded that ALL the wise men (including Daniel and his three friends) were to be put to death. (Vs. 13).
When the soldiers came to get Daniel he went before the king and asked for time and he would tell the king his dream. (Vs. 16). This was granted and Daniel and his three friends held what was undoubtedly the most urgent prayer meeting of their lives! God answered, gave Daniel the dream, and prayers of thanks and praise ascended to heaven. (Vs. 20-23).
The next day Daniel went before the king and not only told him what the dream WAS–but also what it MEANT. “There is a God in heaven who reveals secrets and HE has made known …what will be in the latter days.†(Vs. 28)
God had shown the king a huge image–the head was of gold, the chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze and legs of iron (Vs. 32), its feet of iron mixed clay. (Vs.33).
While the king watched, a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and it struck the image on its feet and broke it in pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff…the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. and the stone…became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.†Vs.34,35.
Daniel went on to say that “YOU, O king…are this head of gold.†Vs. 37, 38-40. (that this meant the kingdom of Babylon under the rule of Nebuchadnezzar is shown in vs.36–38 “after you shall arise another KINGDOM inferior to yours, then another, a third KINGDOM, of bronze…and the fourth KINGDOM shall be strong as iron, inasmuch as iron beaks in pieces and shatters everything, and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and be crushed with all the others.â€
Look in any history book of ancient history and you will find that these four great empires were Babylon followed by Media-Persia, Greece and the “iron kingdom†of Rome. Amazing, isn’t it–in 4 short verses (37-40) God revealed to a heathen king a “timetable’ of history that has come to pass just as God said it would!
But the dream didn’t stop here–Vs. 48-42 show that the mighty Roman Empire would NOT be followed by another “world kingdom†but it would be divided and even though there were many who tried everything within their power to reunite Europe into one great nation again it would never happen! And it never has. Instead, the kingdom of Rome was broken up and smaller nations took its place.
These ‘divided kingdoms’ would continue in one form or another until the “stone†struck the image on it’s feet, destroyed every earthly kingdom and “filled the whole earth.†That this “stone†represents the return of Jesus who will have a kingdom that WILL “fill the whole earth†is amply verified by other Bible verses. Since I need to keep this as short as possible, I won’t go into those verses here.
So far, every part of this prophecy has been perfectly fulfilled and I can find no real reason to doubt that the rest of it (and others) will also be fulfilled in their order. (Prophecy has a much better “batting average†than evolution has as for as I am concerned!)
This is only one of many great prophecies of the Bible that give us an understanding of where we stand in the line of history–and if my God can foretell the future so exactly I have full confidence that He can be trusted to tell the past–regardless of what puny man may say–or whatever “science†he can bring forth to “support†his claims!!
I am no enemy of true science–which (from which I have read at times but haven’t felt the need to really dig into it.) I believe it fully supports a young earth but I, personally, can’t see me, at my age, spending hours studying into it since prophecy fills MY need to “know†where truth lies… Bible prophecy (and there is a LOT more of it–some of which I may post at another time) may not answer your questions but it does mine and so is good enough for me to plant my faith on.
Personally, from my view point, I can’t see arguing all these “scientific points†back and forth (and back and forth again and again and again) has done much good. It takes up a lot of time and space on this site and I, for one, haven’t seen that anyone has changed their mind on how they see things as a result. What I have written may not change any minds either. After all..“a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.†But (hopefully) at least you may better understand how I see things–and why. (And I feel quite sure there are a lot of other folks out there who see things the same way!)
All the best……
Lydian
Lydian Belknap Also Commented
New NAD president: ‘I love you’ doesn’t mean we won’t deal with issues
@Sean Pitman:
9-22-10
“The same thing is true of prophecy. Just because one can demonstrate very accurate foreknowledge doesn’t mean that this individual is really God. It just means that we can’t tell the difference between someone with such power and what we would recognize as ‘God’.†– Sean Pitman
Sean, you have me completely confused. If you can’t base your belief in God because of prophecy what can you base it on? You certainly can’t base it on human science.
(As someone once said to an extremely intelligent friend of mine: “Sir, you need to put the “cookies†on a lower shelf so the children can reach them!â€)
New NAD president: ‘I love you’ doesn’t mean we won’t deal with issues
Oops! I really messed up on that one. Of course the Bible and EGW are correct and the earth is only about six thousand years old. I apologize.
New NAD president: ‘I love you’ doesn’t mean we won’t deal with issues
9-20-10
Another thought: The earth–which was without “form and void†–was also apparently around for who knows how long before God turned it into paradise and put life on it. So, to me anyway, arguments about the age of the EARTH are worthless and a waste of time. We will spend eternity learning more and more of the wonderful works of our Creator God! I can hardly wait!
Recent Comments by Lydian Belknap
A New Endowment Program for Adventist Education
So here I sit–a “very old lady”–totally confused and not having a clue as to whether to donate or not–or where to donate if I should.
As things stand now I think I will just continue putting my own little amount to my current “missionary out reach” of buying “Steps to Christ” and “Who Do You Think You Are?” and passing them on to the clerks in the stores where I shop or other people I meet that I think would like them.
If and when you folks decide on what, how and where to help in this very worthy project let me know and I’ll do what I can then.
A New Endowment Program for Adventist Education
I just noticed that there is such a program in place in northern California but I would want one that is nation wide. After all, if our kids aren’t already in danger here in the southern union also (as well the rest of the US) it’s most likely only a short matter of time till they will be.
A New Endowment Program for Adventist Education
I am far from a wealthy person who could and gladly would donate large sums of money to such a program but I could and would gladly donate some if such assurances were solidly in place. I’m sure there are many “old folks” like me “out there” who feel the same way. (Is there already such a program in place? If so please post all needed information.)
The God of the Gaps
While browsing my rather voluminous file of articles to “save” I ran across this jewel—I think it is worth saving and thinking about–especially the last statement by Darwin himself:
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Darwin’s Theory of Evolution
While Darwin’s Theory of Evolution is a relatively young archetype, the evolutionary worldview itself is as old as antiquity. Ancient Greek philosophers such as Anaximander postulated the development of life from non-life and the evolutionary descent of man from animal. Charles Darwin simply brought something new to the old philosophy — a plausible mechanism called “natural selection.” Natural selection acts to preserve and accumulate minor advantageous genetic mutations. Suppose a member of a species developed a functional advantage (it grew wings and learned to fly). Its offspring would inherit that advantage and pass it on to their offspring. The inferior (disadvantaged) members of the same species would gradually die out, leaving only the superior (advantaged) members of the species. Natural selection is the preservation of a functional advantage that enables a species to compete better in the wild. Natural selection is the naturalistic equivalent to domestic breeding. Over the centuries, human breeders have produced dramatic changes in domestic animal populations by selecting individuals to breed. Breeders eliminate undesirable traits gradually over time. Similarly, natural selection eliminates inferior species gradually over time.
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Darwin’s Theory of Evolution – Slowly But Surely…
Darwin’s Theory of Evolution is a slow gradual process. Darwin wrote, “…Natural selection acts only by taking advantage of slight successive variations; she can never take a great and sudden leap, but must advance by short and sure, though slow steps.” [1] Thus, Darwin conceded that, “If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” [2] Such a complex organ would be known as an “irreducibly complex system”. An irreducibly complex system is one composed of multiple parts, all of which are necessary for the system to function. If even one part is missing, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral. [3] Thus, such a system could not have evolved slowly, piece by piece. The common mousetrap is an everyday non-biological example of irreducible complexity. It is composed of five basic parts: a catch (to hold the bait), a powerful spring, a thin rod called “the hammer,” a holding bar to secure the hammer in place, and a platform to mount the trap. If any one of these parts is missing, the mechanism will not work. Each individual part is integral. The mousetrap is irreducibly complex. [4]
Darwin’s Theory of Evolution is a theory in crisis in light of the tremendous advances we’ve made in molecular biology, biochemistry and genetics over the past fifty years. We now know that there are in fact tens of thousands of irreducibly complex systems on the cellular level. Specified complexity pervades the microscopic biological world. Molecular biologist
Michael Denton wrote, “Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, weighing less than 10-12 grams, each is in effect a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred thousand million atoms, far more complicated than any machinery built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world.” [5]
And we don’t need a microscope to observe irreducible complexity. The eye, the ear and the heart are all examples of irreducible complexity, though they were not recognized as such in Darwin’s day. Nevertheless, Darwin confessed, “To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.” [6]
Footnotes:
1. Charles Darwin, “On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life,” 1859, p. 162.
2. Ibid. p. 158.
3. Michael Behe, “Darwin’s Black Box,” 1996.
4. “Unlocking the Mystery of Life,” documentary by Illustra Media, 2002.
5. Michael Denton, “Evolution: A Theory in Crisis,” 1986, p. 250.
6. Charles Darwin, “On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life,” 1859, p. 155.
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I don’t think Sean could have said it better himself!
Walla Walla University: The Collegian Debates Evolution vs. Creation
Sean, I guess I “bit off more than I can chew” when I subscribed to some of your other options.
All I can handle is the ^way it used to be”–like this column still is. Please put me back to this mode of information and I will be very happy. Thanks.
