George: I keep coming back to the same questions … …

Comment on A little-known history about Belief 6 by Faith.

George: I keep coming back to the same questions … What is most important? As we try to reach the world, how are we going to make room for 7 billion people? How does God make room for 7 billion people? Or, maybe those who require a 6-day creation don’t aspire to reach 7 billion people, but rather to fill a smaller niche within Christendom.

I realize this thread started some time ago, but I can’t let your comments pass without addressing them.

The answer to your first 2 questions is:
We aren’t. God would like to save all the people ever born on this planet, but He has made it plain that He won’t be able to do that. Many have rejected Him and His offer of salvation. It is a matter of obedience.

I am rather alarmed that you would regard truth so lightly that you would accept any wind of philosophy that blows by to get people to join the church. Do you honestly think we should make room in our church for people like Hitler, and all the other mass murderers throughout earth’s history? Did God accept Cain’s sacrifice? Should we allow people to join our church who practice witchcraft and other forms of occultism? Or should we only allow in the liars? Lying isn’t as bad as murdering, right? Wrong.

The whole point of this life on earth is to give us a chance to learn of God and to live up to the light we have been given. Your idea to accept everyone and anyone into fellowship with the SDA church is ludicrous at best. You can’t save people against their wills. You won’t ever be able to take everyone to heaven. Think how miserable people would be if they went to heaven where God is worshipped when they hate God and refuse to worship Him. Heaven wouldn’t be heaven, would it? Not for anyone.

When you ask the church to change the truth to accommodate false beliefs you are worshipping humanity, not God.

So what is more important? It is the true and pure worship of God. It is proclaiming the true and pure gospel–the real truth, not some tainted and false story.

Man is never more important than God. If your allegiance is to man, you will find to your detriment that man cannot save you and God won’t save anyone who puts other people first. He is to be first and foremost in our lives. He is to be obeyed. No one will enter heaven who calls God a liar, or refuses to live according to His requirements.

The church is under no obligation to accept anyone into fellowship who does not believe her doctrines. Think…that is what fellowship is all about. It is associating with people who believe the same way.

It doesn’t take much brain power to realize that where there is dissension there will be strife. Simply putting someone’s name on the books doesn’t change the heart or life. Letting everyone into the church willy-nilly would destroy any good the church could do.

The church isn’t just a social club. It is a place for people who truly worship God (and who want to obey Him in every way) to get together, worship and praise God, and learn more of Him.

I hope you will reconsider what is most important.

Faith Also Commented

A little-known history about Belief 6
Just to clarify a statement I made earlier:

When I spoke of religious liberty and used the example of your boss not firing you for your religious beliefs, just in case that confused you a bit, I want you to know that what I was referring to is that if you want to take off your Sabbaths you have a legal right to do this without risking your job.

It does not, however, ensure that the professors are allowed to teach evolution in their classrooms contrary to their employer’s (the church’s) wishes. That is actually willful disobedience and betrayal–in actual fact, not doing their jobs properly–and no employer is required to put up with that.


A little-known history about Belief 6

Ron: Faith and Wesley; Actually, you both grossly misinterpret my position.

[I don’t know about that–don’t you think that the doctrines are not important; that the love of man trumps all else? I think I have interpretted your position quite accurately.]

I believe the church is committing a grievous error, if not an outright sin by their current response to the controversy.
The issue at least for me, is not WHAT the church believes or doesn’t believe. [And that is what I said you said–you don’t care about the doctrines.]

The issue is HOW the church responds to diversity of belief.

[You seem to be thinking upside down and backwards, Ron. We aren’t supposed to have a diversity of beliefs. We are all supposed to be of one mind–the mind of Jesus. Jesus didn’t subscribe to every wind of doctrine that came along and neither should His followers.]

I believe that fear and coercion are tools of the devil. [You are correct in this–but none of us are using fear or coercion. The professors, however, were using fear and coercion in that they required their students to subscribe to what any true SDA knows is false.] I believe the tools of God are reason and loving confrontation. [The professors used confrontation all right; but it was far from loving. They ridiculed students who dared to believe according to the church! That is the heights of arrogance, as far as I am concerned.]

Trying to purify the church by developing a creed and expelling every teacher and preacher who can’t or won’t line up is just wrong.

[Number One: we aren’t developing a creed–the doctrines of our church have been there since the inception of the church and were given by God Himself. Expecting all members to subscribe to these doctrines is only just. Expelling those who won’t live up to and teach the doctrines is not wrong, but totally right. To NOT do so is to allow the enemy to sow tares in the field.]

By attempting to coerce the conscience, it is using the devil’s methods.

[Again, as pointed out above, we do not coerce the conscience. The professors and ministers are free to believe whatever they want to–but they are not free to teach for truth that which is error while employed in our institutions. That, too, is one of the devil’s methods.]

And to be frank, it just isn’t pragmatic. It doesn’t get you where you want to go, i.e. a truly unified church which is unified because people really understand and believe.

[Also, to be frank, I don’t see what you think will be accomplished by letting this fiasco drag on and on since it has been happening for DECADES. I should think that the professors, as thick as they may be, should have gotten the picture by now. I think 30 or 40 years is ample time to let this thing fester. Now is the time for action. Unity of the church will never be accomplished by allowing a few to sow division into the whole.]

[We are all offered choices in this life. What we do with that gift of choice shapes our own destinies. If the professors choose to believe things that the church and its institutions don’t ascribe to, they can only expect that if they try to promote their own agendas in the classrooms they will be asked to leave. That only makes sense. If we allowed professors to teach anything they wanted to it would create confusion and chaos. Two things that Satan uses a lot in his warfare against the church. It would also (and has) indoctrinate the youth of the church, who have come to an SDA school to receive an SDA education, into anti-SDA theories. That is fraudulent both to the students and their parents, many of whom have sacrificed to send their children to an SDA sdhool and who trust that their children will receive an SDA education, AS ADVERTISED.]

[You see, Ron, an SDA school is unique in that it is supposed to teach every subject with an SDA slant. The way things are, they are not living up to their mandate and that means they are cheating their SDA patrons.]

The proper method is to engage in thoughtful and respectful dialogue (i.e. don’t use pejorative terms such as “junk science”). [Sorry, Ron, it IS junk science–that’s called a FACT] Don’t just write people off, be honest, and really deal with the issues. [Precisely what the we are tring to do.] Like God, be tolerant and patient while people work through the issues. Sometimes, as we have seen in God’s dealings with Satan, it takes time. [And sometimes, the time is up–30-40 years is enough! and what’s more very generous.] Like God, you have to be tolerant enough to let people explore, and be wrong. [Not in our classrooms we don’t. What they do on their own time and their own dime is up to them.] At least for a little while until the evidence becomes clear. Yes, I know. For some of you the evidence IS clear. But for some others it isn’t. Religious Liberty means that the majority, for whom the issue is clear, have to tolerate the minority, for whom the issue is NOT clear. [That’s the wierdest definition of Religious Liberty I have ever heard.] As an aside regarding Sean’s assertion Religious Liberty is not a civil issue. It is an issue of conscience. [Sorry, Sean is correct. Religious liberty largely pertains to the way people are treated by the various forms of government and other citizens regarding their religious beliefs. I.e. employers cannot fire you because of your religious beliefs; you cannot be jailed because you worship on the Sabbath–at least for now. That is religious liberty.]

Tolerance does not mean that you are passive, or that you are accepting of a position; [yes, it does] what it means is that you engage respectfully, and that you accept some discomfort during the process. I am sorry I am not quoting the Bible or Mrs. White. I find these concepts are so pervasive throughout the Bible and Mrs. White that I would have a hard time knowing even where to start. I mean, the whole point of the Great Controversy is . . . the Controversy, right? Why do you think it has taken so long? It is because God is not willing to short circuit the process by being authoritarian. He refuses to impose on Man’s will; or even the will of Satan and the Angels. He is taking the time to patiently confront the issues one by one as they come up, and the process will not be finished until EVERY issue has come up, and EVERYONE, even Satan himself is convinced. Not convinced by coercion or fear, but honestly, freely, and truly convinced. (Here is an E.G.W quote: Read the Great Controversy).

[Where on earth did you get that? Are you labouring under the misconception that this thing is going to drag on until Satan is converted????? Satan knows exactly what he’s doing. He’s going down and he wants to take us all with him. He knows he will burn for the sins of the saints, so he figures he will tip the odds in his favour by getting as many of the saints to lose out on salvation as it is possible to do. That way they burn for their own sins.]

That is why God allowed Hitler, so the world could see and freely decide that genocide is wrong. Before Hitler genocide was accepted as an appropriate solution. (Here is a Bible quote: See Judges). After Hitler, it is not accepted.

[Again, where do you get that? God allowed Hitler to do what he did because He has agreed to let sin largely take its course to show the result of Satan’s claims against God’s Law. Before Hitler AND AFTER Hitler genocide has occurred and it will continue on until God calls a stop to this experiment. I’ve got to say, Ron, that your view of the Great Controversy is a skewed.]

That is why Christ had to die, to show man that here is a God that you don’t have to be afraid of, that it is OK for you to come to Him. He is “There for you”.

[No, it wasn’t–it was to pay the penalty of sin for humanity that we could have a second shot at being obedient to, and in harmony with, God.]

I have no doubt that if Hitler came to God even in the last few moments after he swallowed the poison, [or blew his brains out??] that God would be there for him and accept him. I would not be the least bit surprised to see him in heaven. (OK Faith; I agree that it is highly unlikely, [true] but as a matter of argument and principle, I wouldn’t be surprised.)

[Just so you know, I do know that there will be some surprises in Heaven. People who we thought would never make it will be there and people we were sure would be there will be missing. That is why we wouldn’t make very good judges. God knows best. And it is not my intention to judge Hitler–that is up to God. But he’s an obvious choice for an example, in that he committed such awful and plentiful crimes.]
(As an aside: Stop and consider for a moment. What was the real problem in the Garden of Eden. Was it the act of stealing the fruit or was it the fear toward God that Adam and Eve had afterward? [Actually, Ron, the real problem was distrust and disobedience by Adam and Eve. They weren’t afraid of God at all before they committed their sins. Fear is just a natural result of sin.]

What if they had moved toward God instead of running away? God managed to forgive the sins of the Angels in heaven who returned to Him without killing and death, but how could God cure man’s fear? The difference between Man and the Angels was the fear. [Again, where on earth do you get that?] It was the fear which broke the relationship with God and it required the death of God in Christ to show Man that God would rather die than harm or coerce.)[No, it wasn’t–it was the disobedience and distrust that broke the relationship with God.]
…how did we go from talking about teachers trying to teach science to the best of their understanding to talking about Hitler? This is just completely insane. Where is the church’s sense of perspective? May God help us

[You were the one who brought up inclusiveness and coercion. I was just addressing your concerns. If that is insane, then…]


A little-known history about Belief 6

Ron: How do you know whether Hitler had any remorse? He could have. God the creator created Hitler and allowed him to pursue his beliefs and now as a result, the whole world understands the evil of genocide. How do you know whether Hitler understood that before he died and repented? He could have. If God is tolerant enough to allow the Apostle Paul, Hitler, Stalin, Pol pot, et.al to do their evil deeds, should we not have even the littlest bit of grace it would require to tolerate someone who disagrees with us over a creed?

How do I know Hitler didn’t have remorse for his sins? Is there any indication he apoligized and changed his life? No. (By their fruits you will know them.) Instead he apparently committed suicide when he thought he was going to be caught and punished for his heinous crimes against humanity. (Although, I know it is a possibility that someone got fed up on him, murdered him, and made it look like suicide–however, the point is he never turned his life around.)

You are wrong in your theory that the church has to include every sinner on the planet. The church is there to accept sinners who want to change. God is willing to forgive only if we ask for forgiveness and “go and sin no more”. I know we are all sinners and have to work on it daily. But you have to accept that some people just don’t want to live like Christ or believe in God or do good things. That is just a fact. To bring these people into the church would only serve to pollute the church and wouldn’t better the ones who don’t want to be bettered.

Again, you don’t seem to care a hoot about what is truth and what isn’t. You seem to think that truth is easily traded off to get people into the church. Such nonsense serves no good purpose. If we lose the doctrines, what do we have to offer anyone? You don’t save people by putting their names on the books. This inclusiveness is a tool of Satan’s to bring evil into the church and kill it from the inside out. If you love God, you will love His church and try to keep it clean and pure. If we were to bring in people who differ with what you term “our creed” what do you suppose would happen to that “creed”? Not that you apparently care anyway. You seem to think there is no value in the doctrines of the church.

The church isn’t meant to house every unclean spirit. It is God’s institution. What inclusiveness does is put human beings ahead of God. Your attitude demonstrates that you do this. That’s something you should think about very carefully.

Have you ever stopped to wonder how God feels about this? I notice you don’t have any scripture that tells us to include unrepentent sinners in the church–nor do you have any EGW quotations. Why? Because God does not condone such wreckless disregard for His church or His commandments so you won’t find any such quotations. You will find quotations, however, that state that we are never to lower the standards to bring in members or to keep members who don’t want to keep the standards given us. What does that tell you about how God feels about inclusiveness?

Another thing you should realize is that God will not tollerate sin forever. It will be wiped out of the universe, praise God. He only allows it to take its evil course to demonstrate to the universe what evil is and what it will do. The world saw Hitler and his genocide program, but did that stop this practice? No, it is still going on in other countries today.

I really hope you will reconsider your stance on this. It would greatly benefit you if you did. Happy Sabbath.


Recent Comments by Faith

Changing the Wording of Adventist Fundamental Belief #6 on Creation
And you are correct, Sean, PK must consider where his influence is going–for God or against Him.


Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
Mr Taylor,

After reading your comment above, I must say PK isn’t the only one in that boat.I would make some comment as to how I really feel about you, but I know Sean will only delete it and you won’t benefit from my insight anyway–seeing as Sean is more concerned about other people’s feelings than you seem to be.

How you have the nerve to come to this website and call us all a bunch of morons (which is really what you are doing) is beyond me. You and your cronies are the ones drowning in error. Anyone who dares to accept man’s opinions over the Bible or SOP isn’t to be trusted to define truth for anyone.

Too straight-forward in my comment? Trust me, I have restrained myself admirably. If you only knew….


Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
Further to my comment on skeptism and our professors, I’ve got to tell you that I found Prof Kent to be extremely annoying in his comments on EGW. He seems to think that she is an embarrassment to the church when she speaks on Science.

Personally I find people who dis her to be the embarrassment to the church. I really don’t see how they dare to contradict and mock God’s prophet. By doing this they undermine a lot of our church’s beliefs to outsiders as well as church members. God will hold them accountable for that.

Furthermore, David’s unpublished manuscript plus other books I have read on archaeology have reported skeletons of the type that EGW mentions. Also found were artifacts such as huge iron bedsteads made for and buried with kings of huge stature.

Just because you haven’t done your research, PK, don’t jump to the conclusion the evidence isn’t there. It’s there, all right, and you make yourself look a little foolish for not knowing about it.


Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
David Read said:

“Ellen White’s statements about larger antediluvian life forms are well attested with regard to many different types of flora and fauna. They’re not even controversial…

Hi David,

As you know, I took advantage of your kind offer and I read your manuscript as well as I purchased 3 of your books, one for me, one for my sisters, and one for the church library. It took me a week to finish the book, and I and my sisters are very impressed with it. My one sister calls it “one incredible book”. It has answered a lot of the questions we had on the subject of evolution vs creation science, and, yes, I believe we (you and I and my sisters) are on the same page in our beliefs. We have immensely enjoyed discussing the various aspects of the subject as we read. It makes perfect sense to us.

I still have a couple of questions–new ones will probably always keep popping up–but I would say you have covered the subject admirably. Thanks so much for this book.

I agree with Elder Wilson, this is something every Adventist should read. In my opinion it should be used as required reading for science courses. It is exactly the way I would want science courses in the universities to treat the Creation/evolution debate in the classroom. And if the professors at LSU and the other SDA institutions would do this we wouldn’t be constantly losing our young people and, for that matter, our professors, to skeptisism.

Thank God someone has the courage to publish the truth and expose error.

God Bless you, David.


Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
Hi Sean and Bill,

I am wondering if the difference of opinion here is due to varying definitions of the word ‘science’. As we all know there is true science and there is worldly psuedo-science.

If Bill’s understanding of ‘science’ in this case is actually worldly psuedo-science, then he is correct in not wanting any truth to be compromised with it.

From Sean’s post, I believe he is referring to true science, which is definitely part of our beliefs on origins and is well supported by the Bible and SOP, as Sean admirably demonstrated.

Not having seen the exhibit myself, I cannot comment on whether or not they are mixing psuedo-science into it. (Perhaps a few of you posters out there can see the exhibit and report back to us.) Knowing the general philosophy of SAU, I would be surprised if they did.

Their goal is “to provide scientific evidence that substantiates the Bible’s account of creation.” Sounds good to me.
They also say: “Religion and science don’t need to be at odds.” And that is true when you are referring to true science, which I believe they are.

However, I do understand Bill’s reaction in that these days when people use the word ‘science’ without qualification it so often means evolutionary pseudoscience, that we tend to be suspicious.

I think, Bill, that in this case we don’t need to worry. I believe SAU’s heart is in the right place and I am so glad that at least one of our institutions is willing to stand up and be counted on the side of Creation, even though they will probably draw much criticism from the ‘scientific’ community as well as from the TEs in their own church.

God bless them for their fidelity to Him. And may God strengthen them to meet the onslaught that is most likely to follow, is my prayer for them.