The God of the Gaps
Ken, I think there are only two logical possibilities.

1. Everything has always existed and this is beyond our ability to comprehend.

or….

2. Follow the bible which tells us God has always existed and created everything that we now see is in existence. Again, beyond our comprehension.

No. 2 is validiated by the bible and the bible is validated by prophecy.

No. 1 means life has no meaning and we are all going nowhere beyond human understanding which includes origins. And people kill themselves left and right precisely because of this reality based on No. 1. We have no explainable identity.

Since the bible teaches we are not simply the product of natural law with no beginning or end, but rather, we have a specific created identity that God alone can give.

Your personhood is not simply the product of your mother and father. You are not them. Nor some combination of them. You are a person created by God specifically that transcends natural law.

That specific identity is obscured and even denied by evolution. It means you are not a human being until God makes you one.
Somewhere in the process of natural law and pro-creation, God places the identity of a soul in the body that is singular and unique.

When we begin to understand this reality, then we want to preserve that identity as God intended and apprehend eternal life as God purposed for each member of His moral creation.

Evolution gives us no specific individual identity, but makes us simply a product of mass unidentifiable living matter. And this, only if we assume everything has existed from all eternity, which again, we can not comprehend.

A creator God appeals to our need to know who we are, where we can from, where we are going and how can we maintain eternal existence. Even your desire to know that is God given.

Animals never ask these questions. They don’t evaluate their existence nor ask themselves, “Where did I come from and where am I going?”

Nor do they evaluate their decisions and ask, “Why did I do that and could I have made a better decision?”

Self evaluation is part of our personhood and we can stand “out side ourselves” as it were, and ask, “Who am I?”

Evolution is absurd and those who endeavor to support it deny it by even asking questions about it. The fact that man speculates about his origin, denies evolution. Evolution can not bring forth a questioning being. Only God can do that.

For only God can create a being in His own image that can evaluate and re-evaluate who he is, where he came from, and where is he going.

Bill Sorensen

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The God of the Gaps
Paul said…..

“….. if I have been able to help even one observer see that the Grace God revealed in Jesus is not incompatible with full participation in the process of science I would be happy.”

Surely, Paul, you realize that any “miracle” can not be in harmony with all that nature can reveal. A miracle is super natural and beyond nature.

And this comment for Bob. I think you are aware that God said He will “put enmity between Satan and the human family.”

And Jesus is “the light the lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

Nature, without the grace of God super-added, can reveal only confusion and false information. The heathen and heathen cultures are aware of some aspects of truth because it has been handed down from generation to generation even in a secular society.

If a knowledge of the true God were blotted out for a few generations, no one could or would preceive Him by the study of nature. So we have the statement by EGW…”The only religion that leads to God is the one the comes from God.”

We are utterly dependent on special revelation and not science nor nature to preceive the true God. And God Himself has preserved the bible for this very purpose.

With this in mind, we can see why Satan is so determined to undermine the bible and its clear teaching. If he can not destory it, it will serve him equally well to pervert it and distort it and thus accomplish the same ends.

Nature is helpful if and when it is attached to biblical truth. And, as I said, some biblical truth is present in the traditions of human knowledge passed on from generation to generation.

We can not know God, nor His will except by way of scripture.

Bill Sorensen

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Revisiting God, Sky & Land by Fritz Guy and Brian Bull
@Sean Pitman:

Since the fall of Adam, Sean, all babies are born in sin and they are sinners. God created them. Even if it was by way of cooperation of natural law as human beings also participated in the creation process.

Paul says, “Sold in in.” and “Children of wrath just like everyone else.”

You may not like this biblical reality, but it is true none the less.

And yes, God has also provided a way of escape so that all who He has created “in sin” can be “born again” spiritually and escape their heritage of sin and shame.

I know a lot of people don’t like this idea, but it is true anyway. We are born lost with the potential to be saved if we accept Jesus and His atonement that is provisional for “whosoever will may come.”

Cain didn’t like it either and resisted the exhortation of his brother, Abel, to offer a sin offering because he was a sinner. Cain says, “No, I’ll bring a thank offering, but no sin offering. Sin is not my fault. God created me this way.”

Most people will be outside looking in because they agree with Cain but a few will be inside looking out because they agree with Abel.

Bill Sorensen

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What does it take to be a true Seventh-day Adventist?
@Sean Pitman:

Well, Sean, I was not as confrontational as Wesley who said, “Those who deny the doctrine of original sin are heathen still.” … [deleted]

[Oh please…

If you want to have a real conversation, great. However, unless you actually respond substantively to the questions and counter arguments posed to you, without your needless pejoratives, I’m not going to continue posting your repetitive comments on this topic in this forum…]
-sdp

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What does it take to be a true Seventh-day Adventist?
And the topic at hand is “What does it take to be a real SDA?”

It takes someone who is willing to follow the bible and its teaching in every particular. If you don’t believe this, you are not a “Protestant” SDA.

You then bring up the Trinity. Which is fine. But that is certainly not the only thing that qualifies for the topic of your thread.

So, here is what you stated to me…..”To be morally “guilty” of something, however, requires that one is consciously aware of what is right, but deliberately chooses to do what is wrong instead (James 4:17). Without the interplay of free will, there is no moral “guilt”.”

So a person is “born” selfish, proud, coveteous, vain….etc, but not “guilty” of being, selfish, proud, coveteous, vain….etc. Your limited view of “guilt” is not biblical. Half a truth is equal to a lie. There is certainly conscience guilt. But guilt is more than awareness of right and wrong. “Sin is transgression of the law”, and the law doesn’t care what you know, or don’t know. If you break the law, you are guilty of breaking the law.

Just admit the truth, Sean. But don’t accuse me of going outside the intent of this thread when it was not specifically stated as a thread about the Trinity.

Just “man up” once in a while and admit you are wrong. We are all born guilty in the eyes of God. And our ignorance does not free us from this fact.

Bill Sorensen

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Science and Methodological Naturalism
Well, Sean, this article is about Dr. Taylor and his argument to negate the bible. Maybe you and Goldstein can persuade him with your arguments.

The evidences of nature function as a “law that is a schoolmaster” to lead us to the bible. “The heavens declare the glory of God…….” but still does not tell us who God is nor the function of His government concerning the moral law.

In fact, natural law is so convoluted by sin that “survival of the fittest” is the only logical conclusion.

At any rate, I wish you well in your endeavors to support the creation account in scripture.
Take care.

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What does it take to be a true Seventh-day Adventist?
@Sean Pitman:

I read Kevin Paulson’s article and he “double talks” around the obvious to deny and/or ignore the reality of what the bible teaches and EGW confirms.

Babies are born guilty of sin because they are born with the spirit of sin. They have no power to do anything but sin unless and until by the special grace of God, they are given the ability to “choose”.

If you add God’s grace to the bible definition of original sin, you can make man free to act all you want. Original sin has to do with the fall of Adam and the results. It is not about God’s grace that has been added by way of the cross. So EGW has stated clearly in support of the fall and its effects on Adam’s children.

” God declares, “I will put enmity.” This enmity is not naturally entertained. When man transgressed the divine law, his nature became evil, and he was in harmony, and not at variance, with Satan. There exists naturally no enmity between sinful man and the originator of sin. Both became evil through apostasy. The apostate is never at rest, except as he obtains sympathy and support by inducing others to follow his example. For this reason, fallen angels and wicked men unite in desperate companionship. Had not God specially interposed, Satan and man would have entered into an alliance against Heaven; and instead of cherishing enmity against Satan, the whole human family would have been united in opposition to God.” {GC88 505.2}

Those who deny original sin and its effects on the children of Adam always appeal to the atonement and the grace of God. But we see that God “put” enmity between Satan and the human family.

As Luther said to Erasmus in their discussion on this matter when Erasmus claimed the will was free by way of grace,
“Once you add grace you can make the will as free as you like.”

Original sin is not about grace nor what man can do once grace is implied and involved. Original sin is about what man is after the fall apart from grace and/or God’s special action super-imposed in the situation. So, if there is no original sin, neither is there any need for grace.

Kevin Paulson convolutes the issue just like other SDA scholars by making no distinction between how man is after the fall with or without grace.

So, in light of original sin, David says, “The wicked are estranged from the womb, they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.” Ps. 58

David knows apart from God’s grace, no one can do anything but sin. Original sin highlights the necessity and value of the atonement and what it truly means to be “born again.”

Hear the words of Jesus, “That which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit, ye must be born again.”

Original sin is exactly why Jesus made this comment. No one can read and understand the bible who denies the reality of original sin and its effects on all the children of Adam. We are all born guilty of sin, even before we act. So Isaiah says, “Write the vision and make it plain, that wayfareing men, though fools, need not err therein.”

In closing, original sin is not about the atonement nor its meaning and application to humanity. It is about man as he comes from Adam lost and without hope, power, choice or any ability to do anything about his situation.

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