Comment on Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit by Professor Kent.
@ Sean Pitman
Again, speciation and unique local adaptations can be achieved very quickly via Mendelian-style variation within a particular “kind” of gene pool. That is why essentially all modern breeds of dogs could be realized within 300 years or so.
Domesticated dogs do not exemplify speciation. Not even remotely close. And where did you come up with 300 years? Surely not from the original stock. Archaeological evidence shows that humans were domesticating dogs long before Jesus was born. Secular scientists date it to 20,000 years or more.
Obviously hummingbirds were in the Old World post-Flood since you yourself cite the fossil evidence (rare as it may be – which is also telling). The fact that they went extinct in the Old World and did not repopulate it is pretty much beside the point that they were there.
What’s more parsimonious: An Old World group of hummingbirds (of multiple genera) departed the ark and spread to the New World, whereupon all the Old World populations vanished while other Old World bird groups fared perfectly well? Or a New World radiation of hummingbirds spread to the point where one species invaded the Old Word, whereupon it became extinct while the New World population continued to thrive? Think statistical probabilities (which you seem to think are important). But I do understand; parsimony is meaningless when the evidence has to fit informed faith.
It doesn’t take nearly as long as you imagine for a turtle or a snake to get from one part of the globe to the opposite side. Do the math. As far as rattle snakes appearing only in Mexico and North America, not in the Old World, again, this is not unique as already noted. Many species are isolated from other regions because they went extinct in other regions for whatever reason or evolved specializations in isolated regions over time (at low-levels of functional complexity or via a loss of ancestral genetic information)…
I did a quick Google Scholar search for annual movement of rattlesnakes. I found a mean annual displacement of 3.5 km for timber rattlesnake and 4.6 km for prairie rattlesnake. Given the larger value, my math says they could travel 18,400 km. The bigger problem you don’t get is why the animals moved outward from the ark, reproducing after their kind, establishing new populations in all directions from the ark (across much of Asia and Africa)–and then they all died off without leaving a post-flood fossil trace except for those that managed to make it to the New World, where they absolutely thrived. Remarkably, other non-rattlesnake vipers persisted in the Old World without any problem whatsoever. I know, this evidence is no problem for your informed faith. I shouldn’t have to explain to you that your explanation, of course, is ad hoc and faith-based.
There are many potential reasons for the patterns that currently exist. Your arguments do not remotely falsify the Biblical claim for a single origin for all land animal life.
Depends on what you mean by “falsify.” If you accept statistical parlance, it’s a big huge FAIL. The evidence does not support the flood geology prediction. Not even remotely. Somehow I don’t think you want to go with the evidence.
Professor Kent Also Commented
Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
Regarding the possible evolution of feathers in birds, information for producing feathers exists in the genes of the American Alligator, but the instructions are suppressed during embryological development, causing alligator hatchlings to produce only scales. Again, I don’t see a single huge step to go from featherless to feathered.
When one considers the dramatic variation in feather types that exists today–from simple (single filament) to complex (with barbs and barbules), I don’t see a single 1,000-fsaar step as being necessary for this transition.
Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
Sean Pitman: [@ Pauluc] I’ve given you numerous examples already of systems that require a minimum of far more than 1000 specifically arranged residues. How many more examples do you need?
Disregarding bacterial examples (which could have arrived from another galaxy), here are the examples Sean provided earlier to argue that transitions between major animal groups (e.g., amphibians to reptiles, reptiles to mammals or birds) would be impossible:
Sean Pitman in a prior post: Anything novel between these groups that requires a minimum of more than 1000 specifically arranged amino acid parts would qualify (or an equivalent number of codons of DNA) – like the middle ear with tympanic membrane and ear bone in amphibians as well as the amphibian ability to metamorphosize to the adult stage (vs. no such middle ears with in fish or the ability to metamorphosize legs, lungs, etc.), or the amniotic eggs of reptiles with a tough leathery shell (vs. the soft watery gel that surrounds the eggs of amphibians), or the hair and sweat glands of mammals (compared to a lack of such in reptiles), or the true flight feathers of birds with their interlocking Velcro-like features (compared to a lack of such in true reptiles).
I’d like to know how many specifically arranged amino acid parts would be necessary for each these traits. I see no reason why smaller baby steps can’t accomplish these transitions.
Very dramatic mutations can result in entire supernumery limbs appearing out of place in both invertebrates and vertebrates, so I don’t see any difficulty with extra bones showing up in the ear.
Regarding the evolution of hair, a prior study found chickens, lizards, and humans all possessed a similar set of genes that was involved in the production of alpha keratin. In chickens and lizards, the α-keratin produced was found in their claws, but in mammals it was used to produce hair.
Speaking of the leathery eggs of reptiles, there are individual species which exhibit vivipary (live birth), ovovivipary (egg retained internally until birth), or ovipary (egg-laying) depending on where they live. And many embryologists no longer recognize these three categories, as there appears to be a continuum from live-bearing to egg-laying. Doesn’t seem to me the differences are all that insurmountable.
Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
Sean Pitman: Certainly all variation at lower levels of functional complexity could easily be realized in this period of time.
This faith-based claim simply cannot be demonstrated.
Sean Pitman: Humans and apes are quite different in various respects, to include brain structure and function – which is thought to be based on numerous differences in genetic regions that code for miRNAs (around 8% of which are human specific).
You failed to indicate where the 1,000-fsaar gap would be. Where is the evidence these changes could not occur via gradual stepwise change? You’ve argued vociferously that all dog breeds could be derived from a single pair within 4,000 years (you’ve made a case for most occuring in 300 years), why couldn’t these closely-related apes evolve over millions of years?
Sean Pitman: A study published by Nature in early 2010 showed many striking differences between human and chimp chromosome structure, gene content, and even qualitatively unique genes between the two species.
Where are the 1,000-fsaar gaps?
Recent Comments by Professor Kent
Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes
Sean Pitman: Science isn’t about “cold hard facts.” Science is about interpreting the “facts” as best as one can given limited background experiences and information. Such interpretations can be wrong and when shown to be wrong, the honest will in fact change to follow where the “weight of evidence” seems to be leading.
Much of science is based on highly technical data that few other than those who generate it can understand. For most questions, science yields data insufficient to support a single interpretation. And much of science leads to contradictory interpretations. Honest individuals will admit that they have a limited understanding of the science, and base their opinions on an extremely limited subset of information which they happen to find compelling whether or not the overall body of science backs it up.
Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes
Sean Pitman: The process of detecting artefacts as true artefacts is a real science based on prior experience, experimentation, and testing with the potential of future falsification. Oh, and I do happen to own a bona fide polished granite cube.
Not from Mars. Finding the cube on Mars is the basis of your cubical caricature of science, not some artefact under your roof.
Sean Pitman:
Professor Kent: If you think my brother-in-law who loves to fish in the Sea of Cortez is a scientist because he is trying to catch a wee little fish in a big vast sea, then I guess I need to view fishermen in a different light. I thought they were hobbyists.The question is not if one will catch a fish, but if one will recognize a fish as a fish if one ever did catch a fish. That’s the scientific question here. And, yet again, the clear answer to this question is – Yes.
I think I’m going to spend the afternoon with my favorite scientist–my 8-year-old nephew. We’re going to go fishing at Lake Elsinore. He wants to know if we might catch a shark there. Brilliant scientist, that lad. He already grasps the importance of potentially falsifiable empirical evidence. I’m doubtful we’ll catch a fish, but I think he’ll recognize a fish if we do catch one.
While fishing, we’ll be scanning the skies to catch a glimpse of archaeopteryx flying by. He believes they might exist, and why not? Like the SETI scientist, he’s doing science to find the elusive evidence.
He scratched himself with a fish hook the other day and asked whether he was going to bleed. A few moments later, some blood emerged from the scratched. Talk about potentilly falsifiable data derived from a brilliant experiment. I’m telling you, the kid’s a brilliant scientist.
What’s really cool about science is that he doesn’t have to publish his observations (or lack thereof) to be doing very meaningful science. He doesn’t even need formal training or a brilliant mind. Did I mention he’s the only autistic scientist I’ve ever met?
As most everyone here knows, I have a poor understanding of science. But I’m pretty sure this nephew of mine will never lecture me or Pauluc on what constitutes science. He’s the most humble, polite, and soft-spoken scientist I’ve ever met.
Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes
Sean Pitman: I don’t think you understand the science or rational arguments behind the detection of an artefact as a true artefact. In fact, I don’t think you understand the basis of science in general.
I’m amused by this response. I don’t think you understand the limits of a philosophical argument based on a hypothetical situation, which is all that your convoluted cube story comprises, and nothing more. Whether the artefact is an artefact is immaterial to an argument that is philosophical and does not even consider an actual, bona fide artefact.
Sean Pitman: You argue that such conclusions aren’t “scientific”. If true, you’ve just removed forensic science, anthropology, history in general, and even SETI science from the realm of true fields of scientific study and investigation.
Forensic science, anthropology, and history in general all assume that humans exist and are responsible for the phenomenon examined. Authorities in these disciplines can devise hypotheses to explain the phenomenon they observe and can test them.
SETI assumes there might be non-human life elsewhere in the universe and is nothing more than an expensive fishing expedition. If you think my brother-in-law who loves to fish in the Sea of Cortez is a scientist because he is trying to catch a wee little fish in a big vast sea, then I guess I need to view fishermen in a different light. I thought they were hobbyists.
The search for a granite cube on Mars is nothing more than an exercise in hypotheticals. Call it science if you insist; I don’t see how it is different than a child waiting breathlessly all night beside the fireplace hoping to find Santa coming down the chimney.
I guess the number of science colleagues I acknowledge needs to grow exponentially. I apologize to those I have failed to recognize before as scientists.
Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes
Sean Pitman: The observation alone, of the granite cube on an alien planet, informs us that the creator of the cube was intelligent on at least the human level of intelligence – that’s it. You are correct that this observation, alone, would not inform us as to the identity or anything else about the creator beyond the fact that the creator of this particular granite cube was intelligent and deliberate in the creation of the cube.
Your frank admission concedes that the creator of the cube could itself be an evolved being, and therefore you’re back to square one. Thus, your hypothetical argument offers no support for either evolutionism or creationism, and cannot distinguish between them.
Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes
I have taken much abuse by pointing out the simple fact that SDAs have specific interpretations of origins that originate from scripture and cannot be supported by science (if science is “potentially falsifiable empirical evidence”). The beliefs include:
o fiat creation by voice command from a supernatural being
o all major life forms created in a 6-day period
o original creation of major life forms approximately 6,000 years ago
None of these can be falsified by experimental evidence, and therefore are accepted on faith.
Sean Pitman’s responses to this are predictably all over the place. They include:
“[This] is a request for absolute demonstration. That’s not what science does.” [totally agreed; science can’t examine these beliefs]
“The Biblical account of origins can in fact be supported by strong empirical evidence.” [not any of these three major interpretations of Genesis 1]
“Does real science require leaps of faith? Absolutely!”
I think it’s fair to say from Pitman’s perspective that faith derived from science is laudable, whereas faith derived from scripture–God’s word–is useless.
Don’t fret, Dr. Pitman. I won’t lure you into further pointless discussion. While I am greatly amused by all of this nonsense and deliberation (hardly angry, as you often suggest) for a small handful of largely disinterested readers, I am finished. I won’t be responding to any further remarks or questions.
