Comment on La Sierra and Battle Creek College by Sean Pitman.
Although I have occasionally heard this remark about the warm feeling, I have ALWAYS heard much more “evidence†voiced by my friends than just this to sustain their beliefs. Sorry, but I don’t believe the typical Mormon has “blind†faith. And I do find it offensive to make the claim that their faith is blind.
There may in fact be many Latter-day Saints who appeal to some form of empirical evidence to support their belief in the authority of the Book of Mormon. This does not negate the type of emotion or feeling driven faith of many other Mormons and certainly many SDAs as well.
The question is, if all that one does appeal to is emotion or feeling to support one’s faith, where then is the basis to reliably detect the difference between the credibility of the Book of Mormon vs. the Bible? vs. The “Flying Spaghetti Monster”?
The “Flying Spaghetti Monster” challenge is only in reference to those particular people who appeal to their “faith” without regard to any empirical evidence or falsifiable rational whatsoever. It is not a challenge to those who actually believe that their faith is based on at least some kind of superior weight of empirical evidence (as in the case of your own appeal to the historical fulfillment of certain Bible prophecies)…
If you do in fact appeal to empirical evidence as a basis for your faith, as you claim you do, what are your own empirical reasons for thinking the Bible to be more credible than the Book of Mormon?
This isn’t an effort to be uncharitable. My wife and I have some very good LDS friends after all. This is an effort to find out why you, in particular, favor the Bible vs. the Book of Mormon as a source of authority? Both can’t be right – – or don’t you agree? If you do agree, then upon what is your belief in the superiority of one vs. the other based?
This is an honest and sincere question. It is not meant as an attack on any particular individual’s self-worth or moral character. It is a question regarding how one determines what is and what is not most likely true… to include which source of authority is more or less likely reliable or credible…
The same thing is true regarding the basis of belief in the declarations of mainstream science. Mainstream scientists do not believe based on blind faith – not at all. They do believe based on a component of faith, a rather large leap if you ask me, but they do appeal to empirical evidence to support their large leaps of faith.
So, upon what basis do you doubt the validity of their faith that the Bible is clearly mistaken on the topic of origins in favor of the your belief or leap of faith that the Bible is clearly more credible? – or are you being “uncharitable” toward those modern scientists who you think are wrong to doubt the Bible’s obvious authority when it comes to a true understanding of origins?
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
Sean Pitman Also Commented
La Sierra and Battle Creek College
@Professor Kent:
And, you’re still not answering the question as to how you determine where to place your faith among many competing options? – if your faith does in fact trump all other evidence (as you’ve claimed in this forum: Link)? – since no evidence is actually needed to support faith? – scientific or otherwise? – Sean Pitman
I’ve already done so. – Prof. Kent
What you’ve done is given some empirical reasons for your own faith, such as your own appeal to the evidence of fulfilled prophecy (a use of abductive reasoning by the way).
What you haven’t done is explain your argument that such appeals to empirical evidence are really not needed for faith to be valid. You’ve argued that even if all scientific and other forms of evidence where completely against your faith, that you would still believe as you do regardless of any and all opposing evidence.
You’ve not explained how, if “all” evidence is against you, you can make a meaningful leap of faith and pick one among many competing options as true using “faith” alone? – since, according to you, “faith trumps science and evidence.”
How is that done in a meaningful way? How is this type of faith reasonable? – more reasonable than believing or having faith in the Qur’an, the Book of Mormon, or even garden fairies or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Again, this is a serious question which I do not see that you’ve serious discussed much less answered…
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
La Sierra and Battle Creek College
@Professor Kent:
I’m all for abductive reasoning. I just don’t think it’s always science. But I’ll admit this: it can be fun to read and think and write about…
I suppose then that the mainstream evolutionary theory really isn’t “scientific” when it comes to its historical statements? – and neither is any other hypothesis about the nature of history? – such as anthropology or forensics? After all, you can’t make conclusions about the true nature of the past origin of anything without abductive reasoning – right?
Remember now, not all abductive reasoning is valid – just as not all inductive or deductive reasoning is valid. This does not, however, make all such reasoning non-scientific. You simply can’t do science without such reasoning…
Here is an interesting summary of the concept of abductive reasoning as it applies to various uses in science:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning
And, you’re still not answering the question as to how you determine where to place your faith among many competing options? – if your faith does in fact trump all other evidence (as you’ve claimed in this forum: Link)? – since no evidence is actually needed to support faith? – scientific or otherwise?
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
La Sierra and Battle Creek College
Why Share Your Faith? – If you don’t have something better to offer?
Is it not arrogant of you to simply assert that your faith in the Bible is superior to all other faiths? – even in a situation where all other evidence, besides your faith, is admittedly against you? – Sean Pitman
Here is my sincere answer. I have not claimed that my faith in the Bible is superior to the faith of anyone else. Others may have done so; I think you basically have. – Prof. Kent
You believe, via faith, that the Bible is superior to other claimed sources of authority. How can you make this determination without believing that your position is in fact the better decision? – compared to that of someone else who has chosen to believe in the superiority of the Book of Mormon?
I know you don’t actually like to say so, and I know it may not sound politically correct to you, but if you didn’t actually believe that you had something better to offer to someone else, why would you even want to share your “faith”? – if you didn’t really think you had something better than they already had?
I personally believe the Bible has more credibility than the Book of Mormon, which I have browsed extensively.
Indeed. So, how is this not a statement that your faith or belief in the Bible is somehow better than faith or belief in the superior credibility of the Book of Mormon? Do you or do you not think that you have something important to share with your LDS friends which would be of some benefit to them beyond what they already have? – if they were to accept what you have to offer?
It isn’t arrogant to think that you have something worthwhile to share that someone else doesn’t have. What would be arrogant is if you kept something good to yourself and were unwilling to share it.
I think history supports the Bible much better than the Book of Mormon, and I have read extensively from Joseph Smith’s Doctrines and Covenants and I see lots of problems there. Most people do not consider history to be “science,†but if you want to make it that, go right ahead. Still, I don’t compare my faith to those who believe in the Book of Mormon.
Most scientists do in fact consider history to be based on a form of “science”. After all, the Theory of Evolution is a theory of history… as is anthropology and forensic science. Such historical sciences are based on various forms of scientific reasoning, such as abductive reasoning.
Using such reasoning, you have come to the conclusion that the Bible is in fact more credible than the Book of Mormon. In other words, you really do think that your LDS friends are mistaken in their beliefs or faith in the greater credibility of the Book of Mormon. You can say that you don’t compare your beliefs or faith with theirs, but I don’t see how you can really believe this when you say, in the same breath, that you consider the Book of Mormon to be clearly untrustworthy. Tell that to your LDS friends and see if they don’t understand such statements as a claimed superiority of your beliefs vs. theirs…
What is also interesting here is that you claim that even if you did not have the favorable historical evidence that “faith would still trump all contrary evidence” – historical or otherwise. In otherwords, it sounds like you are arguing for faith even if there were no evidence to support that faith at all (i.e., blind faith). If faith does in fact trump both science and other forms of evidence as you say, how does one determine the reasonableness of one’s own faith if faith trumps everything else?
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
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