Bob Ryan wrote: hmmm – the affirmation of present and former …

Comment on La Sierra and Battle Creek College by Professor Kent.

Bob Ryan wrote:

hmmm – the affirmation of present and former GRI staff upholding the Bible view on origins is bent in your response to mean “dismantle GRI”??
How “instructive” that you reach for such odd conclusions. Your logic betrays your lack of objectivity on this subject.

I’m echoing the calls of others here; dig around a bit, Bob, and you’ll find the shreaks to shut down Geoscience Research Institute altogether. I happen to agree with you: “odd conclusions” indeed. Good call. We’re on the same wavelength. Miracles do happen.

Honestly, I think you all are nuts to compel all employees to subscribe to the mantra “we will only tell the Church membership that an overwhelming amount of evidence supports a 6-day creation 6000 years ago and evolutionists are just plain stupid.” But I can’t beat you, so I thought I’d join you and call for the firing of these immoral GRI scientists as well.

By the way, Bob, should any GRI staff be fired if they say, “we have no physical evidence to support the creation of all life forms in only 6 days, the creation of all life forms no more than 6100 years ago, the creation of a human from a pile of dust, the instantaneous appearance of a flock of sheep on a verdant mountain pasture, and the personal role of Jesus himself in this creative act?”

I gather that you say “yes,” and Sean Pitman says “yes, and David Read says “yes,” and Roger Seheult says “yes,” but not one of you can point to a shred a physical evidence–not one shred–that offers any tangible evidence for these fundamental SDA beliefs on origins. You all subscribe to these beliefs for reason only (just as I do): the Bible says so, and you have faith in the Bible’s validity (not “blind” faith; and we don’t need any more rants about “blind” faith).

If there is evidence, I’m asking for what must be the eighth time: PLEASE PROVIDE THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE! And you can’t. That’s because it doesn’t exist. You yourself would have to be fired for the very same thing that you call on others to be fired. Unless…of course…you just tell a little white lie and reassure all SDAs that we DO have physical evidence for these claims. Do you advocate lying about these fundamental SDA beliefs?

Professor Kent Also Commented

La Sierra and Battle Creek College
Faith wrote:

I totally disagree with the speaker…

Careful; this guy is a little testy, and he’s on your side!

If you work for Coke and you tell everyone Pepsi is better, you get fired. It is called disloyalty to your company. And the company is under no obligation to pay your salary if you are disloyal to them.

Wrong. Totally wrong. You can’t go firing every employee who has a disagreement with the employer, or a different opinion. Talk to a lawyer if you think I’m wrong.


La Sierra and Battle Creek College
@ Sean Pitman

How is that done in a meaningful way? How is this type of faith reasonable? – more reasonable than believing or having faith in the Qur’an, the Book of Mormon, or even garden fairies or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Again, this is a serious question which I do not see that you’ve serious discussed much less answered…

It’s just different. What can I say that hasn’t been said already?

My favorite example of abductive reasoning was Princess Leiah’s experience in 1977. What she went through was amazing, particularly the struggle between the dark and good sides of the Force. I think the Empirical data are what got her in trouble in the first place, but her rescue should remind us all that we are not alone in this universe. We have an Alliance unlike anything that data alone can describe.


La Sierra and Battle Creek College
@ Sean Pitman

Here is an interesting summary of the concept of abductive reasoning as it applies to various uses in science:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning

Ut-oh, you mean I was perusing the wrong abduction sites? Mine were much more interesting:

http://www.angelfire.com/sc2/PSIGUFO/famous.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kidnappings

And, you’re still not answering the question as to how you determine where to place your faith among many competing options? – if your faith does in fact trump all other evidence (as you’ve claimed in this forum: Link)? – since no evidence is actually needed to support faith? – scientific or
otherwise?

I’ve already done so.


Recent Comments by Professor Kent

Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes

Sean Pitman: Science isn’t about “cold hard facts.” Science is about interpreting the “facts” as best as one can given limited background experiences and information. Such interpretations can be wrong and when shown to be wrong, the honest will in fact change to follow where the “weight of evidence” seems to be leading.

Much of science is based on highly technical data that few other than those who generate it can understand. For most questions, science yields data insufficient to support a single interpretation. And much of science leads to contradictory interpretations. Honest individuals will admit that they have a limited understanding of the science, and base their opinions on an extremely limited subset of information which they happen to find compelling whether or not the overall body of science backs it up.


Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes

Sean Pitman: The process of detecting artefacts as true artefacts is a real science based on prior experience, experimentation, and testing with the potential of future falsification. Oh, and I do happen to own a bona fide polished granite cube.

Not from Mars. Finding the cube on Mars is the basis of your cubical caricature of science, not some artefact under your roof.

Sean Pitman:
Professor Kent: If you think my brother-in-law who loves to fish in the Sea of Cortez is a scientist because he is trying to catch a wee little fish in a big vast sea, then I guess I need to view fishermen in a different light. I thought they were hobbyists.

The question is not if one will catch a fish, but if one will recognize a fish as a fish if one ever did catch a fish. That’s the scientific question here. And, yet again, the clear answer to this question is – Yes.

I think I’m going to spend the afternoon with my favorite scientist–my 8-year-old nephew. We’re going to go fishing at Lake Elsinore. He wants to know if we might catch a shark there. Brilliant scientist, that lad. He already grasps the importance of potentially falsifiable empirical evidence. I’m doubtful we’ll catch a fish, but I think he’ll recognize a fish if we do catch one.

While fishing, we’ll be scanning the skies to catch a glimpse of archaeopteryx flying by. He believes they might exist, and why not? Like the SETI scientist, he’s doing science to find the elusive evidence.

He scratched himself with a fish hook the other day and asked whether he was going to bleed. A few moments later, some blood emerged from the scratched. Talk about potentilly falsifiable data derived from a brilliant experiment. I’m telling you, the kid’s a brilliant scientist.

What’s really cool about science is that he doesn’t have to publish his observations (or lack thereof) to be doing very meaningful science. He doesn’t even need formal training or a brilliant mind. Did I mention he’s the only autistic scientist I’ve ever met?

As most everyone here knows, I have a poor understanding of science. But I’m pretty sure this nephew of mine will never lecture me or Pauluc on what constitutes science. He’s the most humble, polite, and soft-spoken scientist I’ve ever met.


Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes

Sean Pitman: I don’t think you understand the science or rational arguments behind the detection of an artefact as a true artefact. In fact, I don’t think you understand the basis of science in general.

I’m amused by this response. I don’t think you understand the limits of a philosophical argument based on a hypothetical situation, which is all that your convoluted cube story comprises, and nothing more. Whether the artefact is an artefact is immaterial to an argument that is philosophical and does not even consider an actual, bona fide artefact.

Sean Pitman: You argue that such conclusions aren’t “scientific”. If true, you’ve just removed forensic science, anthropology, history in general, and even SETI science from the realm of true fields of scientific study and investigation.

Forensic science, anthropology, and history in general all assume that humans exist and are responsible for the phenomenon examined. Authorities in these disciplines can devise hypotheses to explain the phenomenon they observe and can test them.

SETI assumes there might be non-human life elsewhere in the universe and is nothing more than an expensive fishing expedition. If you think my brother-in-law who loves to fish in the Sea of Cortez is a scientist because he is trying to catch a wee little fish in a big vast sea, then I guess I need to view fishermen in a different light. I thought they were hobbyists.

The search for a granite cube on Mars is nothing more than an exercise in hypotheticals. Call it science if you insist; I don’t see how it is different than a child waiting breathlessly all night beside the fireplace hoping to find Santa coming down the chimney.

I guess the number of science colleagues I acknowledge needs to grow exponentially. I apologize to those I have failed to recognize before as scientists.


Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes

Sean Pitman: The observation alone, of the granite cube on an alien planet, informs us that the creator of the cube was intelligent on at least the human level of intelligence – that’s it. You are correct that this observation, alone, would not inform us as to the identity or anything else about the creator beyond the fact that the creator of this particular granite cube was intelligent and deliberate in the creation of the cube.

Your frank admission concedes that the creator of the cube could itself be an evolved being, and therefore you’re back to square one. Thus, your hypothetical argument offers no support for either evolutionism or creationism, and cannot distinguish between them.


Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes
I have taken much abuse by pointing out the simple fact that SDAs have specific interpretations of origins that originate from scripture and cannot be supported by science (if science is “potentially falsifiable empirical evidence”). The beliefs include:

o fiat creation by voice command from a supernatural being
o all major life forms created in a 6-day period
o original creation of major life forms approximately 6,000 years ago

None of these can be falsified by experimental evidence, and therefore are accepted on faith.

Sean Pitman’s responses to this are predictably all over the place. They include:

[This] is a request for absolute demonstration. That’s not what science does.” [totally agreed; science can’t examine these beliefs]

The Biblical account of origins can in fact be supported by strong empirical evidence.” [not any of these three major interpretations of Genesis 1]

Does real science require leaps of faith? Absolutely!

I think it’s fair to say from Pitman’s perspective that faith derived from science is laudable, whereas faith derived from scripture–God’s word–is useless.

Don’t fret, Dr. Pitman. I won’t lure you into further pointless discussion. While I am greatly amused by all of this nonsense and deliberation (hardly angry, as you often suggest) for a small handful of largely disinterested readers, I am finished. I won’t be responding to any further remarks or questions.