Although this is slightly off topic, it is a poignant …

Comment on Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes by George.

Although this is slightly off topic, it is a poignant piece from a fellow adventist and doctor who has never experienced a God that intervenes in nature. It supports the notion that Man invents God in Man’s image without any empirical validation of that sort of God.

In regards to your quotes from other eminent scientists, again I refer you to the weak anthropic principle. Do we imbue the physical universe with specific design based on what we can observe? Is the universe really designed for life, or was it accidental happenstance based pn the paricular set of laws that ocurred in this universe. In an infinite metaverse what is the probability that a universe like ours that allows for organic life to evolve? If our universe is so well designed for organic life, why do we not see more of it on every planet?

Now, you might argue there is no proof of a metavesrse, it is all just astrophysical theory. Fair enough. But there is no proof of non made extraterrestial artefacts as well, unless you can demonstate on your granite cube criteria that they exist.

Back to you pard……

http://www.atoday.org/article/1932/opinion/visiting-bloggers/help-what-is-god

George Also Commented

Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes

” A lot of what mainstream scientists promote as “science” is really nothing more than just-so story telling (i.e., fairytales for grown ups). ”

You tell a pretty good yarn yourself Pard. It’s been a pleasure to sit around the celestial campfire and chew the fat for a while. The back door approach of ID to buttress creationism is indeed creative. Rehashed Deism with a Genesis twist. And you do a fine job of it, but every so often you’ll pontificate on the good ole book and then we see what is driving you. And it’s not Science son, it’s faith. Because any science you find contrary to YLC you’re going to fight no matter how overwhelming the results. And son, anyone who reads your column, especially your fellow Adventists, understands that.

Well, time to hit the dusty trail…..


Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes
“Outside of religious institutions where is YLC taught as a scientific theory?”

Speaking of non answered questons…

What does Dr. Ben Clausen, an Adventist scientist, say about whether there is a viable scientific model with predictive power for YEC or YLC? Are you sure you’re being rational about your scientific views, pard?


Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes

“Clearly, errors of the past don’t mean that science is useless. Science is, by its very nature, testable and falsifiable. That means that many scientific hypotheses and theories have been and will continue to be falsified over time. That’s the nature of real science – as compared to untestable religious or philosophical dogma, wishful thinking, or blind faith”

Exactly, so why are you a YLC creationist if you believe in real science as opposed to faith based science? Outside of religious institutions where is YLC taught as a scientific theory?


Recent Comments by George

The Creator of Time
Hello Sean

In fairness to you and your readers I feel like we are being redundant on many points and issues. I need to be respectful that this is an Adventist forum that believes and supports YEC not a platform for my agnosticism.

I do appreciate and thank you for the opportunity to lively debate issues.

Respectfully


The Creator of Time
To Sean

“ A hypothesis about the supernatural world cannot be tested, so it is not scientific. The concept of God, Allah, or other supernatural designer(s), capable of designing the whole Universe, can neither be proved nor disproved. Hence, any claims that any supernatural being or force cause some event is not able to be scientifically validated (however, whether that event really occurred can be scientifically investigated).”

And back to you


The Creator of Time
To Sean

“Remember also that the assumption that future discoveries will one day be able to explain everything via mindless naturalistic mechanisms is not science, but a philosophy of naturalism that is very similar to a blind faith religion.”

How does this compare to the assumption that the Bible will be able to predict the end of the world? Scientific in your estimation or perhaps I really don’t understand how science versus religion works


The Creator of Time
Hello Sean

“I began my investigation with genetic evolution since that is my own personal field of expertise. ”

So have you published papers in scientific peer reviewed journals in this regard? Have you done experiments in this regard? Have you published statistical analysis to demonstrate your theory that macro evolution is mathematically possible?

You are always stating that others have to proof you wrong? Really? If you we’re trying to prove Newton or Einstein wrong would you not have to do so before your scientific peers?

Come on now, as you like to say, do you really scientically think all the biodiversity we witness today cane off a floating Ark some 4000 years ago! Is that really a scientific proposition that is provable or just some just so story?

You see I get the design argument but miracles, prophets, Santa Claus, fairies, ghosts, goblins, arks and the like are not proper subjects for science in my opinion. This is why you are seeing religions, including the progressive side of Adventistism moving more towards acceptance of science as reality, because they understand the modern educated mind will reject them if the stories are too fanciful or don’t make sense.

You see I don’t mind you calling ideas of the meta verse just so stories or not currently scientific as being non falsifiable. You have a point there. I don’t mind you advancing design arguments, especially as it relates to the fine tuned mechanisms of physics and organic life. You have good points there. But please, try to objectively use use that same scientific circumspection to the fantastic claims of the Bible and EGW prophecies or even the age of life on earth. Then perhaps I’ll see a bit of rational sense to your overall position.

Cheers


The Creator of Time
Hi Sean

Your real problem of credibility is your double standard of proof. Put your biblical stories of reality to the same degree of circumspection as you put evolution. To really conclude that all the bio diversity that we see in the world today- apart from that that survived in the water- came off an Ark is probably the most unscientific fantastic claim that even all children see as allegory. There is a reason this is not taught as the source of biodiversity in schools Sean. Yet you as a scientist believe it and think it has an evidentiary basis.

Your arguments on design make much more sense because it is certainly arguable that there is a design to the universe based on the anthropiic principle. It is certainly arguable that a designer like God could have designed a universe like ours but also a designerlike God could have designed a cause and effect evolving universe as well. Like Deism I think ID is worthwhile exploring. But I also think science continues to demonstrate mindless cause and effect mechanisms that don’t require design.

You and Behe are focused on irreducible complexity as an underpinning for design – which for you then becomes the stepping stone to biblical creation. Your methodology is apparent to get ‘educated’ minds to buy into a biblically designer God.

You see I don’t mind admitting that there is still much to do when it comes to understanding how physics and biology work. The best minds in the world continue to work, theorize and experiment in these areas. But you dismiss these efforts with a wave of your hand because they fall outside the biblical narrative so they can’t be true. And it is THAT factor Sean that utterly shatters the rational credibilty of
of creation science as an objective endeavour. The boys at the Discovery Institute understood this and have tried to broaden their approach. Deists understood this as well to get away from cultural myth and move towards a more observational basis for understanding the universe. But sadly Sean l, I think you are so entrenched in your biblical paradigm that you cannot see how your double standard of scientific inquiry harms your credibilty as an objective scientist. If I was to cross examine you in a Court of Law I would have a field day on pointing this discrepancy. And believe me, having cross examined many medical experts in forensic matters I do speak from professional experience.

Yes I know I am stating the obvious as many of your fellow ‘progressive’ Adventist colleagues have stayed before, no doubt to no avail. But, without being smug, just as you have encouraged me to look for God, I encourage you to look very deeply within yourself and look for humbly for rational contradiction. Objective humility is the real start to seeking truth.

Cheers