Comment on Christians and the Sabbath by george.
Epistemological thoughts from from the agnostic peanut gallery:
If Adam and Eve did not keep an accurate calendar from the start of creation, how do we know Saturday is the 7th day of the week or Sunday the 1st? If this is indeed subject to human culture – empirical ignorance of the actual 7th day – then might all Christian denominations be celebrating the prescribed day symbolically? Would this type of well meaning ignorance be forgivable in God’s eyes?
Hypothetical: Let’s postulate that chronologically Sunday is the actual 7th day of the week, not Saturday. Who commits the greater sin: those who in error keep the Sabbath on Saturday, the actual 6th day of the week; or those who treat Sunday, which they think if the 1st day but is the actual 7th day fo the week?
Perhaps you will allow me to digress and analogize in criminal legal theory a bit to speculate on the topic of ignorance of divine law. In common law countries, like the US, ignorance of the law is no defence. This is especially true of minor offences, such as traffic tickets where one is strictly liable if the offence is committed, regardless of one’s state of knowledge. However, for more serious criminal offences, mens rea ( a guilty mind ) is required for conviction. So, by analogy do you think in God’s eyes observance of, or lack thereof, of the Sabbath is a strict liability offence (relatively minor but not requiring knowledge of right and wrong ) or a criminal, immoral offence ( more serious but requiring guilty knowledge?) And what should the respective punishment be depending on the categorization?
I ‘rest’ my cultural case.
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george Also Commented
Christians and the Sabbath
To Wes
” I, like him, am a third generation Seventh-day Adventist of over 50 years (more like over 80 years) of sabbath keeping, and after reviewing the Bible, not the internet, and my own inner self, in communion with Jesus who Himself gave us the Sabbath, having rested on it at Creation and during it for our redemption, I am convinced that Seventh-day Adventism is a more pivotal message than ever. ”
Well said Pard. I hadn’t realized you and yours had been in the corral for that long. A child’s upbringing is likely to factor into his Big Tent moment at a tender age.
No offence Pard. Just sittin’ on the fence pondering why folks “inner selves” believe the things they do and what they are prepared to do to corroborate it. Guess that might be what those scientific city slickers call confirmation bias, or the devoted call faith. Doggone it Pard, which tail should be waggin’ that ole Canine Truth: faith or scientific method?
Christians and the Sabbath
To Ken and Sean
In your view why would blogging be permitted on the Sabbath?
Christians and the Sabbath
Gentlemen
I have read all of your comments with great interest.
Dr. Pitman deserves great credit for setting out the history of the Sabbath and the decisions made by theologians and politicians down through the centuries as to the practice thereof. Edifying and a great service to the Adventist church as well as the secular alike.
I have provided a link below regarding the origin of the legal concept of mens rea ( no crime without guilty intent) below. If you have a chance to read it you will note that there is a reference to a partial biblical origin of the concept (Christ’s Sermon on the Mount). Why do I mention this? Because, respectfully, I think it has an equivalency, and goes to the heart, of the discussion between Bill and Sean about moral culpability for biblical sin. Originally the law punished all regardless of intent based on the actual commission of the offence. However this was deemed unjust and eventually criminal law ( commission of moral offences, equivalent to biblical sin) evolved so one had to have intent to commit the offence to be guilty. This is very similar to Sean’s comments about a deliberate rebellion against the Royal Law of Love, versus a strict liability approach based on original sin that humans, as free moral agents, have no control over.
So, why you might ask, would an old, secular, reprobate, sinner like me have any interest in this debate between well intentioned, erudite Adventists? Because Mankind’s morality, no matter how one might view its source, is critical to the well being of humans no matter what their cultural, political or religious beliefs.
Thank you friends.
http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2828&context=jclc
Recent Comments by george
Science, Methodological Naturalism, and Faith
@ Dr. Pitman
How did you make the segue from the creation story to Alexander the Great as historical science? What am I missing here – did someone actually witness the creation story and write about it?
Let’s try to stay inside the ball park on analogies shall we?
Science, Methodological Naturalism, and Faith
“Again, why do you believe that Alexander the Great really did the various things that historians claim he did.”
Who said I did?
History is often recorded by the victors who may well gild the lily. Different historians may say different things about him. Some may have been eye witnesses, some may have not relying on hearsay. Some may have had a bias. Take all history with a grain of salt by considering the sources and margin for error I say.
However you’re not just talking about claims of the Bible, you’re talking about the claims of EGW. Do you have some empirical proof that she actually visited those worlds she described? If so where is your corroborating evidence of any sort? In short is your belief about EGW’s vision of extra terrestial based on any science whatsoever?
Science, Methodological Naturalism, and Faith
@Bob
Have you ever read how much resistance Darwin faced when Origin of Species was first published? Many of the scientific establishment opposed him. In fact I have read that natural selection did not become a centerpiece of modern evolutionary biology until the 1930’s and 1940’s.
Darwin, like Pasteur has stood the test of time, notwithstanding the lack of initial scientific consensus. Who knows, perhaps one day YEC or YLC may ascend to the scientific pantheon? Have to find evidence for 6 day creation and how biodiversity emanated from the Ark though 🙂
Until then, I’m afraid they are just so stories.
Science, Methodological Naturalism, and Faith
Did you notice that you have unilaterally used the analogy of Alexander the Great of which I have never studied or alluded to?
Are you equating EGW’s vision of extra terrestrial life to a battle on earth? Proverbial apples and oranges, but your silence and evasion of the science behind EGW’s vision is deafening.
Science, Methodological Naturalism, and Faith
@ Bob and Sean
Is EGW’s vision scientific? Is it corroborated or falsifiable?
Ask yourselves honestly why you believe in it. If it is because of your faith that is fine, but if it has some scientific, empirical basis, as Dr. Pitman likes to tote, you need to establish that basis. Otherwise it is a ‘just so’ theological story.
Also, I think a couple of my previous comments on this topic never made it out of the cyber editing room. I didn’t think they were offensive so I’m not sure why they were not posted. 🙂
