Comment on Back to Square One… by Faith.
Excellent posts, Bill and David.
You know, David, I do share your frustration with what is going on. Every now and then I let off steam — and probably shouldn’t — or just go away for awhile to calm down. I keep getting drawn back here because I am so concerned for God’s church. (Not that He needs me to fix anything.) I am especially concerned for the students at LSU. I have seen the results of the heresy being taught. The professors are stealing the soul salvation of many of the students. It really is alarming that they don’t care.
However…they sure will one day. I would be willing to bet they will wish they had their cake as dough again.
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Faith Also Commented
Ron: This process of critical evaluation gradually builds consensus.
So, Ron, do you think that we will be judged by consensus? Do you think that the law of God can change by consensus? You seem to think that man is free to change anything with no thought of what God considers to be right or wrong. You have a man-oriented religion if you believe that concensus can change anything about God or the law.
The whole point about Creation is that God Created us and He knows what is best for us. We have a choice alright enough–we can choose to obey or disobey what God has told us to do in following His law.
Satan has already made his choice. He has refused to obey. What did that get him? Do you think he is happy? He is not. And now he is trying to make as many of us as unhappy as he is. You think he doesn’t know what his end will be? Of course he does–and he wants you and me to burn with him.
Your theory that the church has no right to coerce anyone into believing the truth is a lot of hog wash. The church doesn’t coerce anyone to believe our doctrine. Everyone has the power of choice. If God wanted to coerce anyone, He would have started with Satan. He didn’t do that. He offers us the opportunity to eternal life–but the qualifier is that we ascribe to His law. Why would He ask anyone who doesn’t agree with Him to live with Him? You should have proof enough in this world that such a situation only causes strife. It would be the same as asking Satan back into heaven. Do you want to live in heaven? You can choose to do so if you choose to follow the law. That is your choice and no one will force you to change your mind. You are the captain of your own destiny.
However, this situation that we face with the biology (and for that matter the religion) departments of our colleges and universities has nothing to do with coercion. Are we ordering the professors to believe as we do? No, we are asking that IF they don’t believe as we do, they do the honest thing and go teach somewhere where they can teach what they believe to people who believe the same way. We have the RIGHT to expect that the professors are teaching our beliefs. That only makes sense.
What you are talking about in finding a consensus and with an open mind to allow ourselves to be convinced contrary to the SDA truth is pure foolishness. We have the truth given to us by God. To leave ourselves open to that which is not the truth is to leave ourselves open to a lie. That door should be firmly closed in order to remain faithful to God. People don’t bring us salvation–God does. And I assure you, it is not given to us by concensus. You sir, are on dangerous ground. According to the error you have promoted here, I would say that your soul is in peril and you need to turn around and run, don’t walk, back to the basic fundamental beliefs of the SDA church if your soul is to be saved.
Ron: Bill, I am happy for the church to state what they believe as well, but the minute the church starts to do what Educate Truth is advocating, demanding orthodoxy as a test of fellowship and employment, then you have crossed over the line. The church no longer believes the The Bible and the Bible only, because it is usurping the role of the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible to each individual, and to bring conviction.
Instead of allowing the Bible to be broadly interpreted as needed to meet peoples need, the creed limits the Bible to one narrow understanding which may not be where the Holy Spirit is going in some people’s lives. At the very least, the church is putting itself in the place of God by attempting to coerce thought and belief. Coercion is Satan’s tactic, not God’s.
And that, folks, is the crux of the whole situation. These statements clearly show that the ones who want to deny the Bible, who want to interpret things in their own way, have got the whole thing backwards. They want the church to cater to them and their wants and desires; they don’t want to SERVE THE LORD. Their philosophy is a “me” philosophy–which is from the devil.
They accuse the conservative church of “demanding orthodoxy” when in actual fact it is the Lord who demands obedience. This isn’t a supermart situation–you can’t pick and choose what kind of salvation you want. The plain and simple truth is, God calls the shots. As our Creator, He has the right and the wisdom to tell us what is right and wrong and it is up to us to trust Him and follow in the way He has provided for us to find salvation.
Narrow? Yep! That is what the Bible tells us. The way to salvation is narrow and there will be comparitively few that find it. Why? Because it is inconvenient for them to give up the pleasures they enjoy or it may be that by believing Creation, they may put themselves in the way of ridicule from the secular scientific community. OOOEEE–what did Christ suffer for us? Was He not ridiculed, beaten, and spit on? Why is it such a surprise that we should be treated the same way for our beliefs?
You mention coercion–who is coercing anyone to be in the church? I have often stated that if people don’t want to believe the doctrines of the SDA church, they are welcome to leave; no one is holding them here. It is useless to remain in a church when you don’t believe the things it teaches. You can’t stay in the church and try to change it. God clearly established this church and it’s doctrines and no one has the right to try to change it. You don’t agree? Go to where you can agree, but be aware that you do so at the peril of your soul.
Funny, isn’t it? How the ones who are unsatisfied with the doctrines our church teaches are always accusing the ones who agree with the doctrines of being unchristian. How is it unChristlike to follow what Christ says to do?
Let me assure you, Ron, the Holy Spirit never leads in a different direction than Christ leads. They are one, and they work in concert to bring us salvation. If Their way is not to your taste, that means you need to change your taste.
The Holy Spirit is not going around willy-nilly making one set of rules for one person and another set for someone else. The Law of God is just that. It is His law and His set of requirements. We don’t have the gospel according to Ron, and the gospel according to Faith, and the gospel according to Educate Truth. And, by the way, Faith and Educate Truth are not making our own rules, we are advocating God’s rules. Just so you know.
I am confident that the SDA church is God’s remnant church. I believe the doctrines it is founded upon 100%. That is why I am here. I want to serve and follow the Lord to the very best of my ability. I may not be perfect, but I do try, and will continue to try until the door of opportunity closes. And I fully believe that, with God’s help, I will be successful.
I agree with Bill, we really don’t have time to be infighting. We need to get it together and pull together to finish this work. We need to “come into line” as the angel urged in Ellen’s vision. The church needs to get rid of the worldly philosophy “trash” that has rubbished it for too long.
God will have a church that is purified and able to do His work–He is giving us an opportunity right now to choose whether or not we want to come into line. If we do not, we will find ourselves out of the SDA church. That’s just a natural progression of things–can two walk together except they be agreed? The separation will come in God’s own time. Now is the time to make our choice.
David Read: I don’t think Dan Jackson would be inclined to make that argument, even assuming that he is on our side in this controversy. He comes from Canada, where believing Christians are very much a cowed and intimidated minority, and I imagine he has imbibed the timorous mentality that goes along with that.
OOPS, David, I think you may have put your foot into the proverbial cowpie.:-) Believe it or not, I too, am Canadian and while I have on occasion been called a cow, I have never been called cowed. If anything I am, perhaps, too out-spoken.
In case you hadn’t noticed, I am extremely upset that our church leaders have not taken affirmative action on this issue a long time ago and I have many friends and family who are also appalled at this unchecked heresy in our church. On this forum, I have had to pull my punches somewhat as we have to show respect to some people for whom I have no respect whatsoever.
No, if Dan Jackson is playing politics (and I very much believe he is), it has nothing to do with his being Canadian–there are plenty of Americans playing the same game, you must admit. It is maddening, isn’t it? The church is no place for politics.
To be fair, I know we Canadians have a reputation for being a little too laid-back. That said, however, there are times when we do have a Boston-Tea Party spirit. When it comes to this situation, I am right up there with the best of you Americans.
This issue transcends national borders. It affects all of the SDA family world-wide, as it affects our church doctrines and the souls of those being taught at LSU and other institutions–no matter what their nationality is.
BTW, I attended Auburn Academy in Washington for 3 years and took my nursing at Portland Ad. You see many of us Canadians attend our church’s US institutions, so this issue very much affects us also.
Just want to add that I agree totally with Johnny Vance. We don’t need worldly accreditation and we do need to start following the counsels of SOP implicitly.
Ken, we already tried the petition thing, remember? That was how I got involved with Educate Truth in the first place.
Jennifer, I agree that we individually need to do something to make our voices heard. This appalling situation needs to be brought to a righteous close as soon as possible. Our church needs to return to its foundational beliefs and the worldliness that has crept in needs to be put out with the trash where it belongs.
And as far as Dan Jackson goes, I think he and anyone (professor, administrator, leader, pastor) who does not fully believe in all of the SDA fundamental beliefs and is willing to stand up for them no matter what, should be fired from his or her position of trust immediately if not sooner.
Seeing as Dan is the only Canadians (I am aware of) in this whole mess, I guess that means that a lot of Americans should be facing the “firing” squad as well. (Mooooo!)
Everyone have a lovely day–and keep praying for God to give His church the victory in this battle.
Recent Comments by Faith
Changing the Wording of Adventist Fundamental Belief #6 on Creation
And you are correct, Sean, PK must consider where his influence is going–for God or against Him.
Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
Mr Taylor,
After reading your comment above, I must say PK isn’t the only one in that boat.I would make some comment as to how I really feel about you, but I know Sean will only delete it and you won’t benefit from my insight anyway–seeing as Sean is more concerned about other people’s feelings than you seem to be.
How you have the nerve to come to this website and call us all a bunch of morons (which is really what you are doing) is beyond me. You and your cronies are the ones drowning in error. Anyone who dares to accept man’s opinions over the Bible or SOP isn’t to be trusted to define truth for anyone.
Too straight-forward in my comment? Trust me, I have restrained myself admirably. If you only knew….
Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
Further to my comment on skeptism and our professors, I’ve got to tell you that I found Prof Kent to be extremely annoying in his comments on EGW. He seems to think that she is an embarrassment to the church when she speaks on Science.
Personally I find people who dis her to be the embarrassment to the church. I really don’t see how they dare to contradict and mock God’s prophet. By doing this they undermine a lot of our church’s beliefs to outsiders as well as church members. God will hold them accountable for that.
Furthermore, David’s unpublished manuscript plus other books I have read on archaeology have reported skeletons of the type that EGW mentions. Also found were artifacts such as huge iron bedsteads made for and buried with kings of huge stature.
Just because you haven’t done your research, PK, don’t jump to the conclusion the evidence isn’t there. It’s there, all right, and you make yourself look a little foolish for not knowing about it.
Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
David Read said:
“Ellen White’s statements about larger antediluvian life forms are well attested with regard to many different types of flora and fauna. They’re not even controversial…
Hi David,
As you know, I took advantage of your kind offer and I read your manuscript as well as I purchased 3 of your books, one for me, one for my sisters, and one for the church library. It took me a week to finish the book, and I and my sisters are very impressed with it. My one sister calls it “one incredible book”. It has answered a lot of the questions we had on the subject of evolution vs creation science, and, yes, I believe we (you and I and my sisters) are on the same page in our beliefs. We have immensely enjoyed discussing the various aspects of the subject as we read. It makes perfect sense to us.
I still have a couple of questions–new ones will probably always keep popping up–but I would say you have covered the subject admirably. Thanks so much for this book.
I agree with Elder Wilson, this is something every Adventist should read. In my opinion it should be used as required reading for science courses. It is exactly the way I would want science courses in the universities to treat the Creation/evolution debate in the classroom. And if the professors at LSU and the other SDA institutions would do this we wouldn’t be constantly losing our young people and, for that matter, our professors, to skeptisism.
Thank God someone has the courage to publish the truth and expose error.
God Bless you, David.
Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
Hi Sean and Bill,
I am wondering if the difference of opinion here is due to varying definitions of the word ‘science’. As we all know there is true science and there is worldly psuedo-science.
If Bill’s understanding of ‘science’ in this case is actually worldly psuedo-science, then he is correct in not wanting any truth to be compromised with it.
From Sean’s post, I believe he is referring to true science, which is definitely part of our beliefs on origins and is well supported by the Bible and SOP, as Sean admirably demonstrated.
Not having seen the exhibit myself, I cannot comment on whether or not they are mixing psuedo-science into it. (Perhaps a few of you posters out there can see the exhibit and report back to us.) Knowing the general philosophy of SAU, I would be surprised if they did.
Their goal is “to provide scientific evidence that substantiates the Bible’s account of creation.” Sounds good to me.
They also say: “Religion and science don’t need to be at odds.” And that is true when you are referring to true science, which I believe they are.
However, I do understand Bill’s reaction in that these days when people use the word ‘science’ without qualification it so often means evolutionary pseudoscience, that we tend to be suspicious.
I think, Bill, that in this case we don’t need to worry. I believe SAU’s heart is in the right place and I am so glad that at least one of our institutions is willing to stand up and be counted on the side of Creation, even though they will probably draw much criticism from the ‘scientific’ community as well as from the TEs in their own church.
God bless them for their fidelity to Him. And may God strengthen them to meet the onslaught that is most likely to follow, is my prayer for them.
