The following is from an exchange regarding an Atoday article …

Comment on Angry Scientists: Publishing on Intelligent Design by Sean Pitman.

The following is from an exchange regarding an Atoday article by Cindy Tusch entitled, “Who’s a Fundamentalist”:

http://www.atoday.com/content/whos-fundamentalist

On August 6th, 2010 Pastor John Thomas Mclarty wrote:

Cindy, You begin by defining fundamentalism in the context of 20th century American Protestant history and prove that Adventists, even staunchly conservative Adventists, disagree with a crucial element of that definition. However, you weaken your point by acknowleding this is only one definition of fundamentalism. You cite Hood, Hill and Williams who write:

“What distinguishes fundamentalism from other religious profiles is its particular approach toward understanding religion, which elevates the role of the sacred text to a position of supreme authority and subordinates all other potential sources of knowledge and meaning.”

It all depends upon the reason why a particular text, or a particular person, or even a particular idea is elevated to a position of authority. It has to do with establishing credibility. To quote Mrs. White in this regard:

The infidel Voltaire once boastingly said: “I am weary of hearing people repeat that twelve men established the Christian religion. I will prove that one man may suffice to overthrow it.” Generations have passed since his death. Millions have joined in the war upon the Bible. But it is so far from being destoryed, that where there were a hundred in Voltaire’s time, there are now ten thousand, yes, a hundred thousand copies of the book of God. In the words of an early Reformer concerning the Christian church, “The Bible is an anvil that has worn out many hammers.” – Ellen White, GC p. 288

Or, consider the thoughts of popular Christian apologist Ravi Zaccharias as he addresses this question:

If a pastor says, “All we need is the Bible,” what does he say to a man who says, “All I need is the Qu’ran”? It is a solipsistic method of arguing.

The pastor is saying, “All is need is my own point of reference and nothing more than that.” Even the gospel was verified by external references. The Bible is a book of history, a book of geography, not just a book of spiritual assertions.

The fact is the resurrection from the dead was the ultimate proof that in history – and in empirically verifiable means – the Word of God was made certain. Otherwise, the experience on the Mount of Transfiguration would have been good enough. But the apostle Peter says in 2 Peter 1:19: “We have the Word of the prophets made more certain… as to a light shining in a dark place.” He testified to the authority and person of Christ, and the resurrected person of Christ.

To believe, “All we need is the Bible and nothing more,” is what monks believed in medieval times, and they resorted to monasteries. We all know the end of that story. This argument may be good enough for those who are convinced the Bible is authority. The Bible, however, is not authoritative in culture or in a world of counter-perspectives. To say that it is authoritative in these situations is to deny both how the Bible defends itself and how our young people need to defend the Bible’s sufficiency.

An interview with Ravi Zacharias by Richard L. Schoonover, associate editor of Enrichment Journal, 2009

The Christian Gospel with its message of hope is written to appeal to the intelligent, thoughtful, candid mind. It is not an appeal to blind faith, devoid of any empirical basis or evidence, at all. It is an appeal that itself invokes physical empirical evidences as the basis for its own authenticity and credibility.

For example, consider the story of Jesus healing the paralytic. In this story Jesus asks the question, “Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’?” Matthew 9:5. Let me ask you, what would have happen to Jesus’ metaphysical claim to be able to forgive sins if the paralyzed man had not been healed when Jesus said, “Get up and walk”? Obviously, Jesus’ claim to be able to forgive sins would have taken a huge blow. His credibility would have been shot.

The same thing is true when it comes to a rational belief in the Christian Gospel – or even the Bible itself as anything more than a collection of moral fables. The credibility of such a belief is based, or at least can be based, on the established credibility of those biblical statements that are subject to empirical evaluation, testing, and at least the potential of falsification. And, as in the case of Jesus and the paralytic, if the falsifiable claims of the Bible are in fact falsified, the credibility of the Bible, with regard to those metaphysical claims that are not directly testable, declines as well…

For this reason, it is a mistake to argue that all those who believe in the Bible as the inspired Word of God, who take the intended literal meaning of the Genesis authors at face value, or who actually believe that the biblical stories of fantastic miracles really did happen as described, believe such things based on blind faith in the supreme authority of the Bible alone – without any outside empirical evidence or basis for a truly rational faith in such fantastic things.

While such may be called “fundamentalists” according to certain definitions of this term, these fundamentalists need not be any more irrational in their beliefs compared to high-level scientists who hold certain laws of nature to be fundamentally reliable, with great predictive value regarding the as yet unseen future, due to their extreme credibility in past experience under close empirical evaluation and testing.

Sean Pitman

www.DetectingDesign.com

Sean Pitman Also Commented

Angry Scientists: Publishing on Intelligent Design
@Professor Kent:

Why not at least try and seriously address this serious question? Do you really think that such questions are invalid? – Sean Pitman

I have. The fact that we’re back to this conversation should make clear to you (as it no doubt is to others) that we are at an impasse. You will continue to denigrate faith, and I will continue to defend it. Except that I’m finished doing so.

I don’t remember where you’ve defended your position beyond simply claiming that you’re right and everyone else is wrong. Do you not claim that your faith in the credibility of the Bible is superior to someone else’s faith in the Book of Mormon? or the Qur’an? – based what? You say that there need be no basis in science or evidence. You say that, “faith trumps science and evidence”. So what then is your ultimate basis for assuming the superiority of your faith in the Bible vs. other competing options?

If faith does in fact trump science and evidence, upon what basis is one able to tell which faith is correct? – faith in the Bible? – or the Book of Mormon? or the Qur’an? or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? How does one tell the difference if faith does in fact “trump science and evidence”?

Again, this is a sincere question and I’d be most interested in a serious response to this question. So far I’ve only seen you make fun of this question. I haven’t seen where you’ve even tried to seriously address this particular question. Why not?

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


Angry Scientists: Publishing on Intelligent Design
@Kenneth Christman, M.D.:

Science is the practice of observation, hypothesizing, experimentation, and forming proofs, or conclusions. We cannot experiment with any of the 3 options (evolution, ID, Biblical Creationism), since nobody was around when these events took place and there is no experiment that could be devised to observe any proof. But, solid evidence is abundant, and it is all in the Bible, which we should all be exploring OUTSIDE the realm of any mystic, who will invariable mislead us.

You reference the historical fulfillment of prophecy as evidence for the Divine origin of the Bible. Yet, the study of history and the notion that certain specific events actually happened in history, is based on a form of scientific reasoning known as abductive reasoning.

This abductive scientific reasoning includes your reference to “the practice of observation, hypothesizing, experimentation, and forming proofs, or conclusions.” While scientific methodologies never absolutely prove anything, they are open to testing and the potential of falsification – as are your notions regarding the true nature of history and fulfilled prophecy. These ideas of yours could, at least in theory, be falsified by additional information which you are not currently aware.

So, in short, your idea that the Bible has superior credibility is based on certain forms of scientific arguments and empirical data. You are not appealing to internal features of the Bible alone. You are in fact comparing internal statements of the Bible with external information within the world outside of the Bible to see if they match. That’s a scientific concept… a scientific argument which is open to testing and potential falsification with the weight of evidence. In other words, if the biblical statements did not match the weight of evidence for a particular interpretation of historical reality, this would work against biblical credibility…

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


Angry Scientists: Publishing on Intelligent Design
@Professor Kent:

Is this choice [to believe that the Bible is more credible than other competing options] simply based on a deep feeling or desire? Or, is there some sort of empirically-based reasoning involved? – a form of science? – Sean Pitman

Personally, for me, it comes down to the shape of my toes… – Prof. Kent

Why try to make fun of my question? You yourself seem to recognize the need to appeal to at least some sort of empirical basis for belief in the Bible over other competing options – as in your appeal to certain historically fulfilled Biblical prophesies as evidence, empirically-based evidence, for the greater validity of the Bible.

Yet, when someone comes along and suggests that we need to believe the Bible, even given a situation where every bit of empirical evidence is against the validity of the Bible, you support such arguments as well. It seems to me like you’re trying to straddle the fence…

How is such a position, a position of belief or faith in the credibility of the Bible even when all empirical evidence is against it as far as one can tell, superior to those who hold that some other source of authority is superior to the Bible because they have “faith” in this other source (regardless of any empirical argument) or because they Holy Spirit, or some other spirit, has given them some kind of internal impression?

Why not at least try and seriously address this serious question? Do you really think that such questions are invalid?

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


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