Dear Krismith 777, David, Sean, Bob, Shane, et. al. Re Biblical …

Comment on SDA Darwinians compromise key church doctrines by Ken.

Dear Krismith 777, David, Sean, Bob, Shane, et. al.

Re Biblical interpretation

Gentleman, although I realize your discourse is tangential to the issue of evolution being taught at LSU, it is interesting and demonstrates a very important point. Well meaning folks of the same faith can differ on the interpretation of the biblical account of creation.

Although I am humbled -and grateful for the education – of your biblical knowledge, I ask the following: Do you use human reason, consensus of others (i.e. church doctrine), faith, or a combination of these factors, to come to your own conclusions?

Let’s say we were in a room together and you were all teaching me the correct interpretation of Genesis. Let’s say each of your as teachers had a different, albeit slight, interpretation. Would it be wrong of me as a novice to ask if there was an empirical methodology to resolve the issue. Isn’t this what science does without the bias of faith or non faith?

Cheers
Your agnostic friend
Ken

Ken Also Commented

SDA Darwinians compromise key church doctrines
Re Throwing a monkey wrench into the
works and Bob’s quote

” 3. You say there is no difference between small changes within a genome vs massive transition up the taxonomic latter from simple genomes to complex ones. Have you really thought that one through?

With a flex of a muscle I can move my hand from 0 to 40 mph in 1 second. Does that mean that “with time and more muscle flexing” I will be able to move my hand from 0 to a billion MPH in 2 seconds?

You are taking something that has an observed science limit and pretending that it has no limit.”

Dear Bob

Thanks for your comments.

Sorry to be picayune, but I don’t recall stating ” there is no difference within small changes within a genome..” Those differences are what make organisms unique ( even finches). The question is how did those small changes come about and why the similarities?

And your respectful admonition about the limits of observed science is appreciated. It is simply not enough for my untrained eye, yet ‘candid’? mind, to look at a chimp and see a remarkable similarity between it and a human. Phenotypes might be helpful, yet not definitive clues.

So what is the closest genome to that of a human?

‘Trying to think things through’
Your agnostic monkey’s uncle
Ken


SDA Darwinians compromise key church doctrines
Re Sean’s Quote

“It is far more rational and non-arbitrary to defend one’s conclusion that the Bible (or particular interpretations of the Bible) is in fact trustworthy as the Word of God based on the overall weight of empirical evidence that appeals to the candid intelligent mind.”

Dear Bob, Krismith 777, Prof Kent and Sean

Gentleman, thank you very much for your reply to my queries on biblical interpretation. This ignorant agnostic has a lot to learn when it comes to matters of faith and your collective help is invaluable in that regard.

I’m not sure how any text can speak for itself without interpretation of some sort. I understand the concept of looking at the plain meaning of words in law as one method of interpretation. It seems to me that the historical grammatical method of biblical interpretation is akin to that. And I see nothing inherently wrong with different interpretations of texts, sacred or otherwise. That’s only human.

However, with the greatest respect to Prof Kent’s eloquent defence of faith alone which I understand, I think Sean’s position as per his quote above puts meat on the bones of faith. To be credible to the modern educated mind this is imperative, or else Adventist doctrine may eventually be resigned to the mythological scrap heap. Not that I don’t enjoy mythology, I cut my teeth on Greek literature and philosophy.

Now, where I do side with Prof Kent, is I cannot see how the weight of the evidence favours creation, vs. evolution, at least not yet. To me, distinguishing between macro and micro evolution is an apologetic, creationist argument based on a presumption of life being created all at once. To my (‘candid’? ‘intelligent’?!) mind when I look at chimps I see a strong connection to humans. Similar genotypes support the notion of a common ancestor.

As I watch Sean brilliantly debate with many evolutionists on this forum. I realize I am very much out of my league to understand the data, let alone the arguments in layman’s terms. But what a joy and wonder to observe and participate in the debate! Great stuff!

There is something, can’t comprehend it yet, that intrigues me about intelligent design. Is chance, randomness part of a design humans don’t understand yet? Ironically, Stephen Hawkings new book, which I expect did not come into being ex nihilo, is called The Grand Design.

What I do know is that this site in which I am privileged to partake is very valuable. I have been treated with great Christian charity and tolerance which speaks volumes about your faith. It is my express hope that you of adversarial positions can be more charitable with each other. As I have tried to establish, we all think differently; that should not be a crime but rather an invitation to learn more from each other.

Your agnostic monkey’s uncle
Ken


SDA Darwinians compromise key church doctrines
Re Bob’s Reference

“2 Peter 1:20–21 (KJV 1900)

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

Hi Bob

Good to dialogue with you again.

I read your reference with interest.

Queries: Does prophecy revealed have the exact same meaning for all Adventists?, Christians? Or, do they all have to use some facet of their human reason to understand it or the prescribed method of interpretation? When Adventists differ on the meaning of prophecy how does the individual Adventist decide which interpretation is right?

For example, prior to the Great Disappointment, weren’t all the early ‘Adventists’ in the Miller camp of meaning? Afterwords didn’t EGW come up with a different interpretation on the exact same biblical passages(s) that Miller misinterpreted?

Perhaps I am missing the point, but as the good Dr. Kime pointed out, everybody thinks a bit differently don’t they about the revealed Word of God? So if God inspires the prophets, does He also inspire the readers of the prophecies?

I am not trying to be facetious here but rather comment on the different prisms through which we all view reality. In this Sean is right, individually we all view things with a bit, or a lot, of subjectivity. But over time doesn’t science provide a more objective view. For example, would the laws of gravity or the theory of relativity be any different if Newton and Galileo had have been of a different religious stripe? Is a Christian earth, versus a secular one, more greatly attracted to the sun? What does testing and observation tell us?

Wes suggests, cleverly I might add, that I am attempting to make Science a ‘holy grail’. It’s a good objective tool to examine reality, but not sacred, just a tool. It’s a tool that needs to be constantly sharpened, examined, and upgraded by the hands that use it.

I was taught by a fine Adventist friend that we all have faith, even fervent agnostics!, of some sort. Does an atheist have a faith there is no God?

Your faithful agnostic friend
Ken


Recent Comments by Ken

God and Granite Cubes
@ Sean

I enjoyed your article. As I’ve stated before, I think Intelligent Design is a more modern form of Deism and do not think it is irrational. However, as science on an ongoing basis shows what matters are explainable by cause and effect, less is attributable to conscious design. The question of course is what are the limits of science in this regard? For example, will it ever be able to explain First Cause/

Below is a more fulsome quote of Professor Townes, an self acknowledged Protestant Christian. Please note what he has to say about literal creation and evolution. Do you think he is being more reasonable than you on the nature of design?

“I do believe in both a creation and a continuous effect on this universe and our lives, that God has a continuing influence – certainly his laws guide how the universe was built. But the Bible’s description of creation occurring over a week’s time is just an analogy, as I see it. The Jews couldn’t know very much at that time about the lifetime of the universe or how old it was. They were visualizing it as best they could and I think they did remarkably well, but it’s just an analogy.

Should intelligent design be taught alongside Darwinian evolution in schools as religious legislators have decided in Pennsylvania and Kansas?

I think it’s very unfortunate that this kind of discussion has come up. People are misusing the term intelligent design to think that everything is frozen by that one act of creation and that there’s no evolution, no changes. It’s totally illogical in my view. Intelligent design, as one sees it from a scientific point of view, seems to be quite real. This is a very special universe: it’s remarkable that it came out just this way. If the laws of physics weren’t just the way they are, we couldn’t be here at all. The sun couldn’t be there, the laws of gravity and nuclear laws and magnetic theory, quantum mechanics, and so on have to be just the way they are for us to be here.
Charles Townes
‘Faith is necessary for the scientist even to get started, and deep faith is necessary for him to carry out his tougher tasks. Why? Because he must have confidence that there is order in the universe and that the human mind – in fact his own mind – has a good chance of understanding this order.’
-Charles Townes, writing in “The Convergence of Science and Religion,” IBM’s Think magazine, March-April 1966
Some scientists argue that “well, there’s an enormous number of universes and each one is a little different. This one just happened to turn out right.” Well, that’s a postulate, and it’s a pretty fantastic postulate – it assumes there really are an enormous number of universes and that the laws could be different for each of them. The other possibility is that ours was planned, and that’s why it has come out so specially. Now, that design could include evolution perfectly well. It’s very clear that there is evolution, and it’s important. Evolution is here, and intelligent design is here, and they’re both consistent.

They don’t have to negate each other, you’re saying. God could have created the universe, set the parameters for the laws of physics and chemistry and biology, and set the evolutionary process in motion, But that’s not what the Christian fundamentalists are arguing should be taught in Kansas.

People who want to exclude evolution on the basis of intelligent design, I guess they’re saying, “Everything is made at once and then nothing can change.” But there’s no reason the universe can’t allow for changes and plan for them, too. People who are anti-evolution are working very hard for some excuse to be against it. I think that whole argument is a stupid one. Maybe that’s a bad word to use in public, but it’s just a shame that the argument is coming up that way, because it’s very misleading. “


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote

“Yes, I am suggesting that our scientists should also be theologians to some degree. I’m also suggesting that our theologians be scientists to some degree as well. There should be no distinct dividing line between the two disciplines…”

Hello Sean

First of all, thank you Holly for your comments. You have always treated me with civility and charity for which I am most grateful.

Secondly, on reflection, I do hope I was not strident or offensive in my recent remarks. I am a guest here and should behave with the utmost respect regarding my Adventist hosts. After all I was proposing the Chair of ID at an ‘Adventist’ institution! What gall and temerity from an agnostic!

However something Dr. Kime said struck a very strange chord in me: that a Chair in ID at Harvard would be a quantum leap ( forward – my edit) while such a Chair would be a step backward at LSU. I’ m very sorry Wes, but for me to honestly investigate reality such double standard is not acceptable.

I am sad today, because I think I’m coming to the end of my Adventist journey. I really did see ID as a sort of bridge between your faith and objective inquiry about a ‘Grand’ Design. (apologies Mr. Hawkings). Oh Wes , perhaps I am ontological Don Quixote after all, comically tilting towards immovable Adventist windmills. 🙁 .

However all is not forlorn because I’ve made excellent friends of the heart here. ;). I won’t forget you.

Good luck in your pursuit of God.

Goodbye
Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Wes’s Quote

“. But for a Christian, a great devolution, a great recidivation, a tragic forfeiture, foreclosure, worse. If I were to use the vocabulary of some of our recent posters, I’d not put it as delicately.”

Hi Wes and Sean

I just read again portions on ID from Sean’s website Detecting Design. I am very confused by both of your responses. Why the heck is Sean promoting ID as a scientific theory if this is such a Christian retreat? Perhaps you two differ here? I apologize if I am missing the obvious but I see a tremendous disconnect between what Sean is saying about ID and what he is prepared to do to promote it within the subset of Adventist education.

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote

“Public association is one thing. Private association is another. While many do not feel at liberty to publicly associate themselves with our work here (for obvious reasons), most who still believe in SDA fundamentals (and who are aware of the longstanding situation at LSU and other places) feel that our work in providing enhanced transparency for what is being taught to our young people in our schools was/is necessary on some level.”

Hi Sean

The irony here is that those that are supporting institutional enhanced transparency are hiding behind cloaks of anonymity. That’s not how you, I, Wes, Bob Ryan, Wes, Bill Sorenson and many others here behave. Imagine if Jesus hid behind a cloak and didn’t proclaim his nature. What legacy of respect would he have left?

Conviction requires courage period.

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Intelligent Design

Gentleman, thanks to all for your fulsome replies.

Yes Wes, I remember your cogent analysis of November 14/11. I appreciared it then and its reiteration now. indeed I was waiting to hear from others especially Sean whose site is named Detecting Design. And, here I agree with Bob, ID
does not necessarily rule out any particular design i. e. fiat
creation ot theistic evolution.

But quite frankly I am disaapointed with Sean’s response, not Sean himself for whom I have deep admiration, because I see this as a step backward. Why? Because if you burn the bridge between science and biblical faith it will not be science that suffers.

Ironically Sean makes many fine, cogent arguments for design in nature so I find his reluctance to promote it formally in Adventist education troubling. Respectfully, I don’t think serious enquiry about reality can creep around the periphery or sneak in through the back door. I’m afraid I see a double standard here.

Yes Wes, I understand why Adventists are nervous on this issue. But if one is seeking the truth about reality one can’t wall it in or burn bridges of enquiry. Wes, perhaps the Hellenic maxim should have not so much: Know thyself, but rather Think for thyself. My park bench in Pugwash is a welcome one but does not feature ontological dividers. It is well designed for truth seekers.

Your agnostic friend
Ken