@Faith: Sorry, Sean, I still think you are wrong on …

Comment on Ravi Zacharias: Should Church Members be Held to a Higher Standard? by Sean Pitman.

@Faith:

Sorry, Sean, I still think you are wrong on this. We are indeed judged on our relationship with God and not just by the way we treat our fellowmen.

The way we treat our fellowman is the way we treat God.

It is impossible to truly love each other unless we essentially love God first – which is possible to do without even knowing the name of God, without having ever heard anything about Him, without having read or even heard of the Bible, and without knowing anything about the life and death of Jesus. It is possible to have a relationship with God without knowing or comprehending any specific information about Him.

How so? Because, it is possible to listen to the voice of His Holy Spirit speaking to the heart according to the Royal Law of Love that has been written on the hearts of all – even of the heathen who have no other knowledge of God. At the very least they know how to love that which God loves. And, in doing so, they show that they also love God Himself without consciously realizing it…

There are two sections of the law and we will be judged on both. And that is according to the words of Jesus Himself.

When asked what the Great Commandment was, Jesus replied, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.” Then He adds, “And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” Matt 22:37-39

Notice, Sean, that the first obligation is to love the Lord.

Indeed. And how do we show our love to the LORD? Is it not in loving that which our LORD loves?

How, then, could it be possible that God would save his avowed enemies (which is what agnostics and atheists are) to live with Him in eternity? Not going to happen. Ellen White says that sometimes God uses the heathen to aid (or punish) His people. That doesn’t make them suddenly saved. They are still heathen.

Not true. Mrs. White specifically notes that the heathen who live according to the Royal Law of Love will be saved – even if they never knew the name of God or Jesus and knew nothing of the Gospel story or the Bible.

Consider the following statements of Mrs. White in this regard:

When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory: and before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another.” Thus Christ on the Mount of Olives pictured to His disciples the scene of the great judgment day. And He represented its decision as turning upon one point. When the nations are gathered before Him, there will be but two classes, and their eternal destiny will be determined by what they have done or have neglected to do for Him in the person of the poor and the suffering…

Those whom Christ commends in the judgment may have known little of theology, but they have cherished His principles. Through the influence of the divine Spirit they have been a blessing to those about them. Even among the heathen are those who have cherished the spirit of kindness; before the words of life had fallen upon their ears, they have befriended the missionaries, even ministering to them at the peril of their own lives. Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God.

How surprised and gladdened will be the lowly among the nations, and among the heathen, to hear from the lips of the Saviour, “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done it unto Me”! How glad will be the heart of Infinite Love as His followers look up with surprise and joy at His words of approval!

– Ellen White, Desire of Ages, p. 637-638

Notice how she argues that salvation is not based on knowledge of the written Word or even of direct knowledge of the existence or character of God, but on the motive of love expressed toward one’s fellow man…

I am sorry Sean, but I think your theory borders on humanism and I believe you are incorrect in this. Though I do agree with you that people will be judged on the knowledge they have.

Indeed. One cannot be fairly judged based on knowledge one doesn’t have or doesn’t understand. That’s my whole point. And, you don’t know what knowledge a person really does have and correctly understands or comprehends. It is one thing to hear the truth. It is another thing entirely to understand or comprehend the truth when you hear it.

And, just for the record, I do understand the difference between judging what people do (something we can do by a knowledge of the law) in contrast to judging their fitness for everlasting life (which is God’s prerogative only.) I just think you are wrong in your belief that breaking the law is not an issue of morality. It most certainly appears that way to me.

One cannot be fit for everlasting life if one is in deliberate rebellion against what one knows or believes to be true. Unless you know the heart of a person, and what their true inner motives are and comprehension of the facts is, you are in no place to judge the fitness of that person for salvation. Only God can accurately judge the morality of a person’s act’s regarding doctrinal issues – like a belief in a literal 6-day creation week.

This is why when I argue that evolutionists are mistaken, clearly so in my opinion, I do not argue that they are therefore committing a moral sin. One does not necessarily follow the other. Again, sin depends upon knowing or believing something to be true and rebelling against that truth. I cannot judge sin or morality in this case because I can neither judge the true comprehension of a person nor can I judge true motivation. I can only judge if what a person says or does is in or out of line with what I believe to be “true”.

It is for this reason that I do not judge you on a moral basis. I think you are in error, but I do not think that you are in moral error. I think you are most likely honest and sincere and, if I’m correct in this assumption, I believe that you are savable and will be in Heaven someday…

I think many of my evolutionist and even my “heathen” friends, to include those like Schindler and Wallenberg, deserve the same sort of benefit of the doubt from us “Christians”.

There is no way on Earth that I would tell someone like Wallenberg, who just saved the lives of over 100,000 strangers from certain death, sacrificing his own life in the process, “Sorry, but since you didn’t have the correct view of God while on Earth you may not enter into Heaven and into the companionship of the One who inspired you to do what you did and whose ‘still small voice’ you followed when you did it…” Rather, I’d very much like to meet Wallenberg and say to him, “Come, let me introduce you to the One who gave you the wisdom and power to do what you did…”

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com

Sean Pitman Also Commented

Ravi Zacharias: Should Church Members be Held to a Higher Standard?
@Professor Kent:

Just to clarify: I’m not saying the flood could not have been universal, covering every single piece of land and killing every single living organism outside of the ark. I’m just saying that the Bible’s language does not require these. Dogmatic belief in these ideas goes beyond a simple “thus saith the Lord.”

That may be your opinion, but it is not the opinion of the SDA Church nor is it the opinion of many mainstream Hebrew scholars – such as James Barr.

Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story (c) Noah’s flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark. Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the `days’ of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.

– James Barr, Oxford University

Beyond this, the SDA Church, in particular, has the testimony of Mrs. White who is very explicit in her claim to have been shown the world-wide extent and effects of the Noachian Flood.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


Ravi Zacharias: Should Church Members be Held to a Higher Standard?
@BobRyan:

That is a very different thing from the convicting of the lost done by the Holy Spirit that “convicts the WORLD”. Never is “Convicting the world” said to be “writing the law of God on the heart of all people in the world” in scripture.

Paul is very clear (Romans 2:14-15 NIV) that one can be convicted by the Holy Spirit to do what is right and to love one’s neighbor without actually knowing where the conviction is coming from; without having access to the written Word; without having knowledge of God from the written Word; and without having knowledge of the life and death of Jesus. Mrs. White also confirms this in the Desire of Ages when she writes:

When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory: and before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another.” Thus Christ on the Mount of Olives pictured to His disciples the scene of the great judgment day. And He represented its decision as turning upon one point. When the nations are gathered before Him, there will be but two classes, and their eternal destiny will be determined by what they have done or have neglected to do for Him in the person of the poor and the suffering…

Those whom Christ commends in the judgment may have known little of theology, but they have cherished His principles. Through the influence of the divine Spirit they have been a blessing to those about them. Even among the heathen are those who have cherished the spirit of kindness; before the words of life had fallen upon their ears, they have befriended the missionaries, even ministering to them at the peril of their own lives. Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God.

How surprised and gladdened will be the lowly among the nations, and among the heathen, to hear from the lips of the Saviour, “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done it unto Me”! How glad will be the heart of Infinite Love as His followers look up with surprise and joy at His words of approval!

– Ellen White, Desire of Ages, p. 637-638

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


Ravi Zacharias: Should Church Members be Held to a Higher Standard?
@Rich Constantinescu:

Sean: “This is because morality is not dependent upon accurate knowledge, but upon living according to the very best knowledge that is currently known in a loving manner toward one’s neighbors that is heart-felt…”

GC88 597.2 says, “The truth and the glory of God are inseparable; it is impossible for us, with the Bible within our reach, to honor God by erroneous opinions. Many claim that it matters not what one believes, if his life is only right. But the life is moulded by the faith. If light and truth are within our reach, and we neglect to improve the privilege of hearing and seeing it, we virtually reject it; we are choosing darkness rather than light.”

A deliberate neglect to learn the truth that we could have learned is not honest ignorance. Such is the basis of a moral downfall as Mrs. White points out here. I’m not talking about deliberate avoidance of what one suspects might be true. I’m talking about truly honest ignorance or a truly honest lack of comprehension. Such a person cannot be accused of a moral wrong any more than an amoral animal, like a dog, can be accused of a moral wrong. A moral fall is dependent upon a conscious deliberate rejection of what one knows is true or suspects might be true if further investigation were carried out.

For example, if God had not told Adam and Eve not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they would not have been guilty if they ate the fruit of the tree. It is only because they knew that this fruit was not theirs to take, that they became guilty of stealing when the ate it – guilty of breaking the Royal Law.

LP 87.2 says, “But the Lord, who sent out his ambassadors with a message to the world, will hold the people responsible for the manner in which they treat the words of his servants. God will judge all according to the light which has been presented to them, whether it is plain to them or not. It is their duty to investigate as did the Bereans. The Lord says through the prophet Hosea: “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee.” Hosea 4:6

Again, I’m not talking about a deliberate rejection of knowledge. I’m talking about an honest misunderstanding of knowledge. This very popular text in Hosea is talking about a deliberate rejection of knowledge – not an honest misunderstanding or non-comprehension of the truth. God would never reject someone who honestly didn’t know any better; who had never deliberately rejected suspected truth…

And, in order to accurately make such a judgment, regarding truths that are not intuitively knowable, one must know the heart of another person – which is impossible for all except God.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


Recent Comments by Sean Pitman

Pacific Union College Encouraging Homosexual Marriage?

“Essentially all the administrators, staff and faculty on our campus, including the pastors on our campus already know where I stand. I have never kept any secrets. I have to laugh when I see you say that I am upset because you ‘blew my cover.’ There was no cover to blow.” – Bryan Ness

You’re not the main problem here. I’d have no problem with you personally and what you personally believe at all except that you are a professor in an Adventist school – Pacific Union College.

It’s this school who presents itself as being in line with the primary goals and ideals of the Adventist Church, when it really isn’t. I have friends of mine who have gone to PUC and talked to the leadership about sending their children to PUC. They’ve specifically asked about the situation at La Sierra University and asked the PUC leadership and heads of departments what their position is on teaching the theory of evolution as “the truth” – and if the teachers at PUC support the SDA position on origins and other issues? They were told that PUC does not condone what happened at LSU and that the professors at PUC are fully in line with the SDA position on origins and all of the other fundamental positions of the church.

Of course, you know and I know that this just isn’t true. You, for one, publically speak and teach against the church’s position on origins as well as human sexuality. This reality is not being presented by the leadership of PUC to the parents of potential PUC students. This reality simply isn’t being advertised to the general church membership at all. What PUC should be advertizing to parents and the church membership at large is,

    “Yes, we do maintain professors who teach our students that the church’s position on various fundamental doctrinal issues is in fact wrong and should be changed to reflect the more popular secular position on these topics.”

That’s what it should be telling everyone, but this just isn’t what is being done.

I am attacking no one… Since when is a difference of views an attack on the church?

Since it was placed as one of the church’s “fundamental beliefs” by the church (Link). When you publically publish an article stating that the Church’s position is clearly mistaken and should be changed, that’s an attack on the church’s position.

And of all the issues facing the church, same-sex marriage hardly rises to the level of a “primary goal and ideal.”

The SDA Church has chosen to describe the definition of marriage as being between one man and one woman as one of the “fundamental” messages to spread to the world – as one of the fundamental reasons for its very existence…

Now, you call what you’re doing, not an “attack”, but a “plea for compassion”. However, your plea for compassion is presented as a clear statement that the church’s position is absolutely mistaken – that the church’s position is not at all “compassionate” or even biblical. Now, you may be very honest and sincere in your views here, but that doesn’t mean that you’re not attacking the church’s position in a very real and fundamental way. The fact is that you are making a very clear attack on the church’s position while accepting money from the church as a representative who is supposed to be supporting the church as a paid employee.

Why do you want to cause such people so much pain?

That’s not my goal. However, if a person wants to know what the Bible has to say about what they are doing, I’m not going to pretend that the Bible has nothing to say when the Bible does in fact have something to say. If what the Bible says “causes pain” to a person living in what the Bible says is a “sinful” lifestyle, that’s between them and God. The very same thing is true of me and my own sinful tendencies. If what the Bible says about what I’m doing causes me pain, I can either respond to that by ignoring what the Bible has to say, or I can ask God for help in changing my ways.

Jesus himself said that He did not come to bring peace to those who are living in rebellion against God’s ideals for humanity, but a “sword” (Matthew 10:34). The denial of self and what we naturally want to do given our fallen condition, in order to follow God and what He calls us to do, is often quite painful indeed. That doesn’t mean it’s not the best path to follow. There simply can be no peace between God and those who wish to hang onto what God has said to give up. God does not condemn the sinner for being born broken, but He does warn those who refuse to accept His offer of help to escape their broken condition that, eventually, such refusals of help will not end well for those who are determined to follow their own way.


Pacific Union College Encouraging Homosexual Marriage?
Response from Bryan Ness:

Yet, these professors get very upset when their actions are made public – when they can no longer hide what they are doing from the church at large. – Sean Pitman

Uh, I have never hidden my support and affirmation for LGBTQ+ individuals, and any parent who wanted to know my views on the subject could easily look up what I’ve written, or they could just plain ask me. I openly acknowledge where I stand on these issues on social media too. Essentially all the administrators, staff and faculty on our campus, including the pastors on our campus already know where I stand. I have never kept any secrets. I have to laugh when I see you say that I am upset because you “blew my cover.” There was no cover to blow.

You have not simply let people know what I advocate, you have attacked me personally and impugned my motives and personal spiritual path. You are causing pain not just to me, but to the very people I am trying to comfort and encourage. Your words are not just being seen by the legalistic and judgmental people like yourself, but by parents of LGBTQ+ children and those LGBTQ+ individuals themselves, many of whom are likely already heavily weighed down with self revulsion and depression. And you are doing this for who’s good?

And you wonder why I might be angry and upset? As hard as it is for me to do, I have daily decided to pray for you and those like you that God would soften your heart and show you the grave wounds you are inflicting on God’s beloved. I pray God will help you find compassion and clearer spiritual insight.

Do you really think it’s a “little thing” when our own professors are attacking the primary goals and ideals of the church from the inside? – Sean Pitman

I am attacking no one. You act as if you have not even read my article. I did suggest in there that I think it is time for the church to change and affirm same-sex marriage, but that is not an attack, that is a plea for compassion, a plea that the church return and study this topic again, and I laid out the reasons I think it is fully warranted that we do so. Since when is a difference of views an attack on the church? And of all the issues facing the church, same-sex marriage hardly rises to the level of a “primary goal and ideal.” You are inflating the importance of this topic. the only place where same-sex marriage really rises to a high level of importance is when you are an LGBTQ+ person contemplating marriage, or are the parent, relative or friend of an LGBTQ+ person. Why do you want to cause such people so much pain?


Pacific Union College Encouraging Homosexual Marriage?
Posted by ArkDrey:

The purpose of the H.E. is not to wall people off by modifying curriculum of every subject to fit dogma. The dogma itself has to be enhanced with broader understanding of how to relate various perspectives to these fields of human enterprise.

Certainly, Adventist schools should by no means isolate students from popular ideas that are prevalent within secular culture. If anything, students educated in our schools should have a much better understanding of ideas like neoDarwinism or homosexuality than students educated in secular institutions. However, the education of students within Adventist schools shouldn’t stop here. Adventist education should also give students a reasonable explanation as to why the Adventist perspective on these ideas is actually supported by the Church – by professors who actually personally hold to the Church’s positions on these topics (like the topics of origins or homosexuality, etc).

Again, it is simply counterproductive to have a church school if professors in that school teach that the church’s position is not only wrong, but downright ludicrous, outdated, and completely opposed to the overwhelming weight of “scientific evidence”. Such teaching, by professors that are respected by the students, will strongly influence most students to be naturally opposed to the church’s position on these topics. Clearly then, this would not be in the church’s best interest. It would be far better, from the church’s perspective, not to form church schools at all than to have professors within their own schools attack the church organization from the inside.

But there is world of difference between presenting it as fact that the teacher believes, and a theory with problems. – @ajshep (Allen Shepherd)

I’m in total agreement here. Again, it is one thing to teach about a particular concept that opposes the teachings of the church. It is a far far different thing to then support this particular concept as “true” as compared to showing the students why you, as their teacher, don’t find it convincing.

That is why a teacher, employed by the church, is actually stealing from the church when they attack the church’s position on a given topic from within their own classroom or via a public forum. Such activity simply goes against what a teacher is being paid to do by his/her employer.


Pacific Union College Encouraging Homosexual Marriage?
From David1:

Your presumption and hubris are exactly what Jesus pointed out to those who brought the women caught in adultery. Have you learned nothing from the examples of what it means to be a Christian that you would indulge in such harshness and judgemental words and pronouncements.

Consider that while Jesus most certainly was very kind and gentle and forgiving to the woman caught in adultery (certainly one of the most beautiful stories in the Bible), that He did in fact tell her to “go and sin no more”.

I would say that the very same action and recommendation should be given to all who find themselves part of the LBGTQ+ community. God loves sinners and came to save all of us who find ourselves caught in the web of fallen and sinful lives. He doesn’t condemn us for being broken, but He does offer us a way out and tells us to “go and sin no more”.

In light of this, my problem with the efforts of Dr. Ness is that he is making the claim that there is no brokenness or moral problem with committed monogamous homosexual lifestyles – that the Bible says absolutely nothing in this regard and therefore there is nothing for God to forgive here. There is simply no need to say, “I love you, now go and sin no more”.

I’m also not quite sure why Dr. Ness draws the line with monogamy since he doesn’t accept the Biblical statements, often within the same passages as those discussing monogamy, that speak against homosexual activities? This seems inconsistent to me since it seems quite reasonable, given the arguments presented by Dr. Ness, that polygamy could also be argued as being even more consistent with God’s will and natural genetic mutations that God Himself designed. Upon what “scientific” or “religious” or “philosophical” basis does Dr. Ness draw the line at monogamy as being the clear Biblical standard where God draws the line? – when many have very strong and very “natural” polygamous tendencies?

Of course, I also have a problem with a paid representative of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, who is responsible for teaching our youth in support of the primary goals and ideals of the Church, publicly arguing that these goals and ideals are completely wrong – on the church’s dime. Such activity, even if one is totally convinced as to the error of one’s employer, is unethical since it is a form of stealing from one’s employer.

At the very least, parents who are paying a great deal of money to send their children to one of our church schools should be very well informed as to what they can expect their children to be taught at our schools and what positions the teachers at the school are publicly promoting. Providing this information to such parents is my primary purpose in responding to Dr. Ness’s publicly published article in public forum.


Pacific Union College Encouraging Homosexual Marriage?
Response from Dr. Ness:

Do you not understand what it is like in academia? Differences of opinion among scholars is not only tolerated, it is valued. I have nothing more to say concerning your accusations. Our church has no “official” stand on this issue, if by that you mean I am disavowing my membership in the church by simply believing that gays should allow ro get married to one another. That is not even how our church operates. I can point to many other church employees who openly disagree about certain issues of belief, including this one, and congregations that are fully affirming of same-sex marriage. They are a part of the SDA church just as I am.

My concern still is more about the tone and stance of your attacks. You are attacking fellow SDAs, some of them being the most vulnerable members of our church, and you seem to have no sense of the damage you are potentially doing to these individuals. By attacking me in the fashion you are you are also attacking all those for whom I am standing up. You may want to take Jesus’ words to heart:

But whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea. Matt. 18:6

I know very well what it’s like to be involved in leadership positions within the church and within academia. My own father is a retired pastor and teacher. It’s one thing to publicly present and even promote various opinions that do not directly undermine the church or school one is working for. However, it is another thing entirely to directly attack the fundamental positions of the church while being a paid representative of the church. Such activity is not at all encouraged and is, in fact, unethical – a form of theft from your employer. Sure, there are many pastors and teachers who think to do such things anyway. That doesn’t make such activities morally right. It’s still wrong to do what you are doing.