Dear Inge and Wes Wise people. Thank you. Ken …

Comment on Dr. Ervin Taylor: ‘A truly heroic crusade’ by Ken.

Dear Inge and Wes

Wise people.

Thank you.
Ken

Ken Also Commented

Dr. Ervin Taylor: ‘A truly heroic crusade’
Re Wes’s Quote

“Dear Ken, Wonderful! See you at the debate, then. Let’s get there a little early, for a chat. I do feel I know you pretty well now, so am all the more eager to meet you en vivo, away from blog’s built-in and contagious rancor and cantankerousity. I’ll be the asymmetrically dimpled old guy with the Brillo pad white beard, subliminal grin and a non-subliminal kyphosis. (Interesting suggestion, that Ted Wilson moderate. Hmmm. But I think he’d do better for the opening prayer and benediction. They may be more crucial than the polemics anyway. But, say! hmmmm, would you be willing?)

If this doesn’t work out for us, some other time – even if only allegorically.”

Dear Wes

I’d be happy to sit with you in the front row. Rather than share the canteen perhaps we can share a bag of popcorn together.

Yes, if asked I’d be happy to moderate. I’ve read with interest the cited comments by EGW regarding debate. A lot of wisdom there. I think a civil, respectful, dignified, informative debate(s) could be conducted. The key is to set a clear agenda and the ground rules so the debaters, the moderator and the audience know what to expect.

In light of the disparity between church’s FB #6and the biology of origins being taught at Adventist institutions, I think debates could be very useful. I’ll put more thought into this but perhaps there could be a series of debates at LSU, PUC etc, covering various facets of the issue(s).

I hope I can be of service.

I hope you are having a good Sabbath and I am not committing too much of a transgression writing this on same.

Best Regards
Ken


Dr. Ervin Taylor: ‘A truly heroic crusade’
Dear Inge and Wes

Sean’s Quote

“Our understanding of truth does in fact change over time as does our understanding of the weight of evidence in support of that “Present Truth”. The SDA Church recognizes the progressive nature of human understanding of truth. What did it for my grandfather may not be enough given the additional information that is known today…”

My Quote

“What will Man’s understanding of God be in a thousand years time.”

Hmmmm…see some parallels there folks? If truth is a moving target why pour the concrete of faith around one’s ontological feet? Is Sean progressing or stuck in a YLC paradigm? Is Erv progressing or stuck in a progressive Adventist paradigm. Am I progressing or stuck in an existentialist/agnostic paradigm. I don’t know, in which response Wes will ‘undoubtly’ see the irony.

Why is truth progressive but faith fixed? Why did mankind proceed from polytheism to monotheisn? How did the Nicene Creed come about long after the death of Christ? Why did Martin Luther break away the Catholic Church? Why did the Church of England emerge( Henry’s appetite for the ladies or a missive from God?) Why are progressive Adventists trying to marry the concept of an old earth and long life into a less literal understanding of the biblical account of origins? Why is Sean valiantly trying to marry YLC with empirical evidence to his his deep rooted conviction to a recent life and the writings of EGW? Is this all divinely inspired or maybe just maybe the social constructs of Man?

Inge’s Quote

” ‘Said like a true social evolutionist. πŸ˜‰ You are giving away your deeply embedded bias here. πŸ™‚ And that’s going farther than most evolutionary biologists who do not necessarily subscribe to social evolution.”

Do I see an evolution of religion. I do. Is it a bias or based on observations? Well we can’t change the facts of what has happened or cloak the dispute of origins in the Adventist community can we? Are schisms in religious institutions inevitable when strong leaders challenge or pull the doctrinal threads apart? If ‘Present Truth’ is evolving which faith faction is right, if any?

Inge forgive me, if this is bias rather than observation. Does it mean that any one particular iteration of faith is right and all others wrong? No, not logically, but as new iterations -or new religions for that matter – grow, the probability of one being right decreases.

Inge’s Quote

“I think you’re doing a great job of providing perspective and asking good questions. :)”

Thank you my friend. I hope so and that I’m not just being a rabble rouser! And thank you very much for your concern for my salvation. I do not take that lightly! I’ve been treated very well on this forum and that speaks highly of Christian, Adventist charity.

Your agnostic, yet hopefully not antagonistic, friend Ken


Dr. Ervin Taylor: ‘A truly heroic crusade’
Dear Bob

Thanks Bob.

Point well taken. The Bible has had an incredible impact on mankind. Great reading. I’ve enjoyed it as I have many other great books including the Origin of Species.

Education is an inclusive rather than an exclusive process. History shows that the collective human mind will not be shackled by dogma but will progress favorably with better knowledge. What education does is give one perspective and critical thinking skills. My wish for my children, who think quite differently than me by the way, is to think for themselves.

Nice to chat.
Ken


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Hi Bob

I asked once before and I’ll ask again: what is your background and expertise in biology?

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Creeds and Fundamental Beliefs
Re: What every human being on the planet believes?

Empirically, as i don’t have blind faith I could know this, perhaps it could only be a divine being that could do so. πŸ™‚

Always open to correction though to those that know the absolute truth,

I remain,
Your agnostic friend
Ken


A “Christian Agnostic”?
Re Bob’s Quote

“But we can “observe” that the making of complex systems (and books, and works of art and science) is done by “creators” every day – observable, repeatable, testable. A mechanism proven to work.”

Hi Bob

Thanks for your comments.

This may surprise you but I’m actually intrigued by the design argument. My Dad is a Deist although I’m not of that bent, at least not yet! The laws of nature, i.e. gravity, that even allow the universe to exist are pretty marvelous. Did they arise as a result of a random quantum fluctuation or was their Grand Designer behind it all. If so what is or was the nature of such designer based on what we empirically observe about our universe?

The problem I have with intelligent design within our universe and especially regarding life on earth is theodicy. I do understand how the concept of original biblical sin accounts for the loss of perfection, but I have a very tough time understanding why a God would cause such destruction of his creation based on the disobedience of the literal eating of an apple. I just can’t rationally fathom how the eventual and natural demise of our solar system can be based on Man’s fall. Empirically, through science we can now view the death, and birth, of stars. Was this all caused by eating forbidden fruit?

Thus one must ask: why would a good, compassionate God create a Universe, and sentient life, that suffers and dies? Age old problem, that in my estimation has been allegorically resolved through the Genesis narrative.

Let’s move on to evolution. Micro evolution does not seem to be a problem for anyone. Life does adapt to its environment through genetic change. In my mind the issue becomes what happens over billions of years. After considering everything I have read to date I cannot honestly see an overwhelming case for a young earth. Moreover I have not read or heard anything yet that such a view can be scientifically supported by anyone without a biblical creationist bias. Given enough time great change will occur as evidenced by the vast diversity of life spread over every niche of our planet. Were there kangaroos on the Ark, or did they evolve in an isolated part of the world from whence they could not spread?

I don’t think evolution is a fraud or a hoax. Too many educated people of faith believe and accept it for it to be an atheist conspiracy. Have their been mistakes made and will they continue to be made? Are there dishonest scientists? Certainly. They are fallible humans, just like you and I, after all. But the issue is what does the weight of all the multidisciplinary evidence indicate?

Hope that helps

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote

“Yes, I am suggesting that our scientists should also be theologians to some degree. I’m also suggesting that our theologians be scientists to some degree as well. There should be no distinct dividing line between the two disciplines…”

Hello Sean

First of all, thank you Holly for your comments. You have always treated me with civility and charity for which I am most grateful.

Secondly, on reflection, I do hope I was not strident or offensive in my recent remarks. I am a guest here and should behave with the utmost respect regarding my Adventist hosts. After all I was proposing the Chair of ID at an ‘Adventist’ institution! What gall and temerity from an agnostic!

However something Dr. Kime said struck a very strange chord in me: that a Chair in ID at Harvard would be a quantum leap ( forward – my edit) while such a Chair would be a step backward at LSU. I’ m very sorry Wes, but for me to honestly investigate reality such double standard is not acceptable.

I am sad today, because I think I’m coming to the end of my Adventist journey. I really did see ID as a sort of bridge between your faith and objective inquiry about a ‘Grand’ Design. (apologies Mr. Hawkings). Oh Wes , perhaps I am ontological Don Quixote after all, comically tilting towards immovable Adventist windmills. πŸ™ .

However all is not forlorn because I’ve made excellent friends of the heart here. ;). I won’t forget you.

Good luck in your pursuit of God.

Goodbye
Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote

“Public association is one thing. Private association is another. While many do not feel at liberty to publicly associate themselves with our work here (for obvious reasons), most who still believe in SDA fundamentals (and who are aware of the longstanding situation at LSU and other places) feel that our work in providing enhanced transparency for what is being taught to our young people in our schools was/is necessary on some level.”

Hi Sean

The irony here is that those that are supporting institutional enhanced transparency are hiding behind cloaks of anonymity. That’s not how you, I, Wes, Bob Ryan, Wes, Bill Sorenson and many others here behave. Imagine if Jesus hid behind a cloak and didn’t proclaim his nature. What legacy of respect would he have left?

Conviction requires courage period.

Your agnostic friend
Ken