@Jan Long: Sean, your argument about the reliability of Ice …

Comment on Adventist Education–at the crossroads? by Sean Pitman.

@Jan Long:

Sean, your argument about the reliability of Ice Core dating is quite deceptive. While it is true that the deeper the core, the weight of the ice and the shifting thins the layering, but the layers have been validated by historic events—namely known volcanic eruptions—going back 2000 years.

This isn’t exactly true.

Comparison with volcanic signatures isn’t an exact science by any means. Tephra is not often found because it falls out of the atmosphere before it makes it to the ice sheet. And, below 10,000 layers the ice becomes too alkaline to reliably identify the acid spikes associated with volcanic eruptions. Also, Volcanic eruption rates are very common, 30 per year on average. The farther back in history, the fewer of even large volcanic eruptions are known. For example, only 11 eruptions were recorded from between 1 and 100 AD. Therefore, determining which eruption signal is or is not present in the ice at a particular level, even within just the past 2000 years, becomes quite problematic.

As an example of this problem, consider the Mediterranean volcano Thera, a volcano that was so large that it effectively destroyed the Minoan (Santorini) civilization in the year 1628 B.C. Tree rings from that region show a significant disruption matching that date. Layers in the “Dye 3” Greenland ice core also showed that a major eruption occurred in 1645, plus or minus 20 years. This match was used to confirm or calibrate the ice core data as recently as 2003 (well after the publication of the Two Mile Time Machine you reference below).

At the time of the initial study scientists did not have the budget to do a systematic search throughout the whole ice core for such large anomalies that might also match a Thera-sized eruption. Now that such detailed searches have been done, many such sulfuric acid peaks have been found at numerous dates within the 18th, 17th, 16th, 15th, and 14th centuries B.C. Beyond this, tephra analyzed from the ice core layers originally thought to represent the Thera eruption did not match the volcanic material from the Thera volcano.

And there are other such examples of significant problems in the use of volcanic signatures to validate ice core dating. Consider the following commentary on the reliability of volcanic signatures in ice cores:

“The desire to link such phenomena [volcanic eruptions] and the stretching of the dating frameworks involved is an attractive but questionable practice. All such attempts to link (and hence infer associations between) historic eruptions and environmental phenomena and human “impacts”, rely on the accurate and precise association in time of the two events. . . A more general investigation of eruption chronologies constructed since 1970 suggest that such associations are frequently unreliable when based on eruption data gathered earlier than the twentieth century.”

– Baille 1991, University of Wales (http://www.aber.ac.uk/iges/cti-g/volcano/lecture2.html)

If even theoretically this particular method has little reliability beyond the twentieth century, what good is it when it comes to a time in history when ice sheets were forming very very rapidly during the initial post-Flood ice age that swept the planet a few hundred years after the Flood? You’ve also failed to even address the problems the Greenland ice sheet poses for the very long Hypsithermal warm period that began to fade only 4,000 years ago… a period what was even warmer than it is today (talk about ‘global warming’).

The scientific community is quite unified in the conclusion that the ice core has captured historical data going back 100,000 years on the Greenland Ice Sheet. Older than that, the dating reliability falls off.

Of course the scientific community is quite unified on this assertion. The mainstream scientific community is completely sold on the idea that life has existed and evolved on this planet for billions of years. What’s a few hundred thousand years of ice in comparison? But what is the reliability of the actual science involved in ice core dating? – the actual data? Do you know? Or, are you just relying on what you’ve been told without looking into the counter-evidence for yourself?

Rather than get bogged down in a fruitless discussion of Ice Core dating, I will leave the reader with a couple of excellent references, and those of you who are interested in more information can study this subject from credible scientists. Both sources are quite readable.

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html
Richard B. Alley, The Two Mile Time Machine

Ah yes, The Two Mile Time Machine, a favorite reference for those who have lost all confidence in the Biblical story of origins. Unfortunately, Richard Alley significantly overstates the case for ice core dating. He doesn’t cover the problems involved to any significant degree – problems which are fundamental to the reliability of this dating method.

As for your discussion of how revelation should be read and interpreted, I will mention that I was reared in SDA fundamentalism and while I take revelation quite seriously, I have moved away from bible-olatry and ellen-olatry. In short, I take empirical data seriously. The choice is thus to either abandon faith entirely or to vest revelation with a revised level of authority commensurate with the physical realities. I have simply chosen the latter course.

Bible-olatry? i.e., Bible idolatry? That’s certainly a new one for me – especially coming from someone who claims to be supportive of a Church that is based on the assumption that the Bible is the very Word of God himself. What’s next? God-olatry?

This isn’t to say that empirical evidence isn’t important. It is very important. Both the Bible and Ellen White recommend that faith should be built on the weight of evidence – i.e., on the weight of physical reality or empirical evidence that appeals to the candid mind. The only difference is that you think your own ability to interpret physical reality is more solid than certain of the Bible’s very clear statements on the true nature of physical reality which fundamentally disagree with your own ideas.

Yet, you want to somehow maintain a semblance of faith in the Divine origin of the Bible on at least some level. How is this done once you’ve removed the very basis of rationally supporting the idea that the Bible provides any more privileged information than a moral novel? Such an approach to the Bible does not leave the SDA Church in any kind of unique position beyond a general feel-good Christianity that provides no real basis for a solid hope in the future physical realities described in the Bible. After all, if you essentially falsify the credibility of the Bible’s account of history, you are left with no really rational basis to accept what the Bible says about the future – or any of its other metaphysical statements about God or any of the other “miraculous” stories in the Bible for that matter.

I’m sorry, but if the SDA Church wishes to remain viable, it must take some risks. It must risk the potential of being falsified in many people’s minds. Taking a non-position that doesn’t have even the potential for falsification is just a feel good religion that has nothing really solid to offer regarding the future realities of the physical resurrection of the dead and a future life without sin and the pain and suffering that go along with the “Survival of the Fittest”.

Again, I do appreciate your sincerity and your efforts to present what you think is true and beneficial.

Sincerely,

Sean

Sean Pitman Also Commented

Adventist Education–at the crossroads?
@pauluc:

My point in quoting Davies’ review of Polkinghorne was to show that they base their ideas on God’s existence on evidence, on certain features within the universe, which they think can only be explained by deliberate intelligent design on the level of God-like intelligence. That is an intelligent design hypothesis on at least some level.

Just because those who appeal to intelligent design theories on at least some level may also believe in various aspects of the modern theory of evolution doesn’t mean that an ID theory hasn’t been invoked on at least some level. It has.

After all, even I believe in evolution via RM/NS as being responsible for many features of living things. Many features of living things are very well explained by neutral evolution or by low-level functional evolution. This doesn’t mean that all features of living things can be therefore be explained by RM/NS. It is this leap of logic or extrapolation of low-level evolution to much higher levels of evolution, within mainstream science, which isn’t scientific. Many features of living things go well beyond the creative potential of any known mindless mechanism while being well within the realm of ID. This is the very same argument used by Davies to support his belief in a God as the designer behind certain features of the anthropic universe.

By the way, I do know Norman McNulty. I’m just not familiar with his views on perfectionism – which is, in any case, irrelevant to this purposes of this particular website. Also, my transitional internship was completed at Eisenhower Army Medical Center (not an SDA institution) and my hemepath fellowship was completed at the City of Hope under the world-renown Lawrence Weiss (not SDA either).

I remain as perplexed as ever how you can hold views on the the nature of intelligent design as a natural phenomena and the requirement for faith to be subservient to reason and evidence but deny anyone in church employ any leeway to explore or articulate anything beyond what you consider truth.

It isn’t what I consider truth. It is what the Church as an organization considers to be fundamental “present truth”. All are free to join or to leave the Church at will. This is a free civil society in which we live – thank God. However, the Church, as with any viable organization, must maintain a certain degree of order and discipline within its own organizational structure if it is to survive. The Church simply cannot afford to hire those who are ardently opposed to the basic fundamental goals and ideals of the Church as an organization and who go around teaching and preaching against the fundamental positions of the organized Church.

You may not consider the organization of the Church to be all that important. I think that without organization, and the order and control that goes along with maintaining any organization, that the Church would quickly fragment into a meaningless hodgepodge of isolated groups with widely divergent ideas. The organizational aspect of the Church is what gives it its power to spread a unified Gospel message more effectively.

I appreciate your responses to my questions and the glimpses I have gained into the mind of a person who seems to discern truth and sees the justice in imposing it on others.

What employer doesn’t impose various rules and restrictions on its paid employees? – rules that are known upfront before the employee agrees to take the job? You very well know that you can’t have your cake and eat it too. You can’t be paid by an organization for doing whatever you want. You are paid to do what the organization wants you to do. If you don’t like what the organization wants you to do, you don’t have to take the job. Again, it’s as simple as that. This isn’t some deep philosophical mystery here.

It is self-evident, is it not, that when one takes on employment in an organization of one’s own free will, one is obliged to take on the restriction, the rules, of that organization. Is it wrong of Reebok to require its own employees to only promote and even wear Reebok shoes? Would it be wrong of Reebok to fire and employee for publicly promoting Nike as making a superior product?

Come now. If you really believe that Nike makes the better shoe, and you are bound and determined to be honest to yourself and tell everyone about the superiority of Nike, why on Earth would you expect to be paid by Reebok to promote Nike? You’re simply making no sense here. You’re basically an anarchist who thinks you deserve to be paid simply for your honesty. I’m sorry, but no viable organization works that way. An honest Catholic should work for the Catholic organization. An honest Baptist should work for the Baptist organization. And an honest evolutionary scientist should work for those numerous organizations who would be more than glad to pay such an individual for their efforts. Why should the SDA Church pay anyone who doesn’t actually want to promote what the SDA Church, as an organization, wishes to promote?

God bless and give you as much insight into his Grace.

Likewise. God is a God of order and disciplined government – not anarchy. All are free to come and enjoy the gifts of God as given through the inspired organization of the SDA Church. However, not all are free to expect payment from the SDA Church for their services since not all are well suited to be official representatives of the Church as an organization.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


Adventist Education–at the crossroads?
@pauluc:

As already noted, challenging fundamental aspects of Darwinian evolution is not like challenging most other aspects of science. It is like challenging some fundamental religious aspect of most mainstream scientists.

It’s not like there aren’t very good scientific reasons for challenging the mainstream paradigm in many respects. A similar case, as already noted, is the fairly recent E-mail scandal over global warming: where scientists in charge of journals deliberately falsified data and blocked the publication of minority opinions from scientists with which they disagreed. The very same thing happened to Stephen Meyer when he tried to publish in mainstream literature. And, the one time he was successful, Richard Sternberg, the editor who was brave enough to publish a paper from an scientist supportive of intelligent design behind any aspect of our universe, was demoted and lost his job at the Smithsonian.

I’m sorry, but I don’t think you comprehend the strong emotion and even religious zeal that mainstream scientists share for the defense of Darwinism against any fundamental counter within the journals that they control.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


Adventist Education–at the crossroads?
@pauluc:

You wrote:

Every reference you give [regarding the Sternberg case] is filtered through a creationist source.

And all of the references you listed were filtered through evolutionist sources. The fact is that the original references in this case are clearly listed and are readily available. There is no cover-up of the actual facts involved in this case – to include Sternberg’s exoneration by the OSC and the House Government Reform Subcommittee on Criminal Justice, Drug Policy, and Human Resources. Those are the facts.

Yet, you write:

You must understand that we all start from certain assumptions. On origins you start from a certain reading of an inerrant canon and the writings of EG White. If you at all understand science it is based on the assumption that nature can be explained by natural law. To then inject miracles into that understanding is to subvert the core process.

Wait just a minute here! Since when does the detection of the need for intelligence to explain a given phenomenon violate scientific methodology? Since when is the detection of the need for intelligence to explain certain phenomena excluded from science by definition? Since when does the invocation of “natural law” mean that only “mindless natural laws” can be invoked in all situations?

Do you not realize that many fields of modern science are based on the ability of scientific methodologies to detect the activity of deliberate intelligence in play within our universe? – to include forensic science, anthropology, and even SETI science? Don’t tell me that when an anthropologist picks up a rock and declares that it has the features of a deliberately carved arrowhead that real science isn’t in play. Don’t tell me that when a man walks into his house and sees a freshly baked chocolate cake sitting on his kitchen table that rational, even scientific, thought isn’t involved in determining an intelligent origin for the cake. Don’t tell me that if one of our rovers were to find a highly symmetrical polished granite cube, measuring one meter on each side, on the surface of Mars, that such a discovery would not be hailed as evidence for the existed of non-human intelligent life by mainstream science.

You know as well as I do that these things are all true – that the detection of the “miracle” of intelligence in play within our universe is by no means beyond the powers of scientific investigation. Just because intelligence itself most certainly is a “miracle” from certain perspectives does not mean that it’s detection is beyond science. It isn’t.

The irony is as I have pointed out repeatedly you as a practioner of evidence based medicine (Admittedly I am making an assumption here as you have been LLU trained) do adopt a naturalistic approach to medicine. In this there is a clear disparity with your writings on origins.

I am board certified in anatomic, clinical and hematopathology (with a hemepath fellowship from the City of Hope under Dr. Weiss). I’ve also worked for several years as an urgent care doc back when I was in the Army and have been involved in a number of forensic investigations. You are ignorant to think that a “naturalistic approach” to medicine means that only mindless natural causes can be invoked to explain all situations that doctors encounter. If this were true, the crimes scenes I helped to investigate would never have been detectable as crime scenes. No one would have ever been charged with a deliberate crime of any kind if your notions and concepts of the “miraculous” and of “naturalism” were correct.

I hate to break this to you, but intelligence is “natural”.

I’m just hoping that you don’t actually teach this stuff in one of our SDA schools… but I wouldn’t be surprised.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


Recent Comments by Sean Pitman

Science and Methodological Naturalism
Very interesting passage. After all, if scientists are honest with themselves, scientific methodologies are well-able to detect the existence of intelligent design behind various artifacts found in nature. It’s just the personal philosophy of scientists that makes them put living things and the origin of the fine-tuned universe “out of bounds” when it comes to the detection of intelligent design. This conclusion simply isn’t dictated by science itself, but by a philosophical position, a type of religion actually, that strives to block the Divine Foot from getting into the door…


Revisiting God, Sky & Land by Fritz Guy and Brian Bull
@Ron:

Why is it that creationists are afraid to acknowledge the validity of Darwinism in these settings? I don’t see that these threaten a belief in God in any way whatsoever.

The threat is when you see no limitations to natural mindless mechanisms – where you attribute everything to the creative power of nature instead of to the God of nature.

God has created natural laws that can do some pretty amazing things. However, these natural laws are not infinite in creative potential. Their abilities are finite while only God is truly infinite.

The detection of these limitations allows us to recognize the need for the input of higher-level intelligence and creative power that goes well beyond what nature alone can achieve. It is here that the Signature of God is detectable.

For those who only hold a naturalistic view of the universe, everything is attributed to the mindless laws of nature… so that the Signature of God is obscured. Nothing is left that tells them, “Only God or some God-like intelligent mind could have done this.”

That’s the problem when you do not recognize any specific limitations to the tools that God has created – when you do not recognize the limits of nature and what natural laws can achieve all by themselves.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


Revisiting God, Sky & Land by Fritz Guy and Brian Bull
@Bill Sorensen:

Since the fall of Adam, Sean, all babies are born in sin and they are sinners. God created them. Even if it was by way of cooperation of natural law as human beings also participated in the creation process.

God did not create the broken condition of any human baby – neither the physical or moral brokenness of any human being. God is responsible for every good thing, to include the spark or breath of life within each one of us. However, He did not and does not create those things within us that are broken or bad.

“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?'” Matthew 13:27-28

Of course, all humans are indeed born broken and are in a natural state of rebellion against God. However, God is not the one who created this condition nor is God responsible for any baby being born with any kind of defect in character, personality, moral tendency, or physical or genetic abnormality. God did not create anyone with such brokenness. Such were the natural result of rebellion against God and heading the temptations of the “enemy”… the natural result of a separation from God with the inevitable decay in physical, mental, and moral strength.

Of course, the ones who are born broken are not responsible for their broken condition either. However, all of us are morally responsible for choosing to reject the gift of Divine Grace once it is appreciated… and for choosing to go against what we all have been given to know, internally, of moral truth. In other words, we are responsible for rebelling against the Royal Law written on the hearts of all mankind.

This is because God has maintained in us the power to be truly free moral agents in that we maintain the Power to choose, as a gift of God (Genesis 3:15). We can choose to accept or reject the call of the Royal Law, as the Holy Spirit speaks to all of our hearts…

Remember the statement by Mrs. White that God is in no wise responsible for sin in anyone at any time. God is working to fix our broken condition. He did not and does not create our broken condition. Just as He does not cause Babies to be born with painful and lethal genetic defects, such as those that result in childhood leukemia, He does not cause Babies to be born with defects of moral character either. God is only directly responsible for the good, never the evil, of this life.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


Revisiting God, Sky & Land by Fritz Guy and Brian Bull
@Ron:

Again, your all-or-nothing approach to the claims of scientists isn’t very scientific. Even the best and most famous of scientists has had numerous hair-brained ideas that were completely off base. This fact does not undermine the good discoveries and inventions that were produced.

Scientific credibility isn’t based on the person making the argument, but upon the merits of the argument itself – the ability of the hypothesis to gain predictive value when tested. That’s it.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes
Don’t be so obtuse here. We’re not talking about publishing just anything in mainstream journals. I’ve published several articles myself. We’re talking about publishing the conclusion that intelligent design was clearly involved with the origin of various artifactual features of living things on this planet. Try getting a paper that mentions such a conclusion published…

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com