Ervin Taylor says: November 19, 2010 I don’t think many of …

Comment on An apology to PUC by BobRyan.

Ervin Taylor says:
November 19, 2010 I don’t think many of those of us who read Sean’s statements on this and other web sites appreciate how truly heroic is the task he has set out for himself.

His interpretation of the Bible requires that all life must be very young—
less than 10,000 years.

However, he is not content in just leaving it there as his personal belief about the history of the physical world based on his own interpretation of an ancient text.

It is kind of nostalgic – watching our evolutionist friends continue to imagine that the overwhelming support of young life, literal 7 day creationism at the recent GC session is “just something Sean did” or that it is proof that “Sean” is the one Adventist that accepts that doctrine.

Whenever you read that kind of myopic posting – you kinda want to respond with “can you spell Seventh-day Adventist” or “do you recall the drubbing that the deep-time long evolution doctrine on origins receieved in Atlanta in 2010”?

I am thinking that after FB #6 gets updated it will be “even easier” for our eveolutionist friends to recall that 2010 drubbing of the doctrines on origins preached by evolutionists.

Oh well – it is a free universe – the evolutionists are allowed their personal beliefs even if it is a kind of flat-earth fiction of the form that “Sean” is the only Bible believing Christian among Seventh-day Adventists.

Erv said :
He (Sean) believes that there must be solid modern scientific evidence to support the conclusions he has reached because of his religious beliefs. He is thus forced to call into question and reject the foundational conclusions of the essentially all of …

This is where Erv is careful NOT to use the phrase “foudational observations of essentially all of SCIENCE”. Because in fact the “birds come from reptiles” mythology is NOT observed by ANY of science!

Rather what we have in the case of true believers in evolutionism is “devotees that believe that they will once day find solid modern scientific evidence to support the conclusions they have reached because of their religious beliefs that — birds come from reptiles– and — the Bible is wrong –. They are thus forced to call into question and reject the foundational observations of the essentially all of science – starting with entropy and going directly to the problem observed of genetic mutation confined within static genomes, as well as an abiogensis story that is dead in the water.”

I don’t think the causal reader is aware of what kind of heroic odyssey upon which our evolutionist friends have embarked. They must reject all of the scientific observations made in the lab not merely 99.9% of them.

The very long list of scientific evidence they are forced to reject is truly impressive. They must believe that all of observed proven laws of chemestry, biology and physics are “flawed” and that the laboratory observations involved in the study of these topics are either wrong or simply lack the proper “storytelling” to make them fit the evolutionist dfream.

I’m thinking of a word that describes the attitude that evolutionists must have to be able to do this.

Erv said
He always finds some major, fundamental mistake or misunderstanding that all of the specialists in each field who have spend their professional lives studying either don’t know about, or ignore, or misinterpret or something.

Here again – lots of evidence for how storytelling in evolutionist circles impacts their perception. Not only do they imagine that Sean is the only Bible Believing Seventh-day Adventist – but they also “imagine” that all scientists believe-in evolutionism.

Oh well – I guess that is the nature of our evolutionist friends to bring in a light note to the subject now and then.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan Also Commented

An apology to PUC
We need to remember some context:

1. The “context” in this case is a religion department seminar not a biology department seminar. There is no way that the PUC religion department will requiring that their students must master some kind of science solution for all of the questions, puzzles and rabbit trails that an evolutionist can imagine – as part of their basic training.

2. Nothing in the LSU discussion to this date suggests that they suddently woke up one day and discovered that their religion and biology departments were all in the tank for evolutionism. It appears that things took time to develop. Compromise seems to have progressed slowly over time while the administration simply circled the wagons and resisted the opportunity to make changes early. Eventually that kind of leadership results in a 3-alarm blaze.

(To use Battle Creek terminology).

3. PUC represents an “early”(?) stage problem different from LSUs current problem or from the conclusion of the Battle Creek problem. So it likely has a different solution – but LSU stands as a testimony to what happens if you don’t figure something out at one of those earlier stages.

It is this third item above that keeps me looking into the possibiliy that PUC might do something insightful given the example they have just down the road of what goes wrong when you simply choose to look the other way.

in Christ,

Bob


An apology to PUC
“As it turns out” it is possible to “observe the function” of genes, of cells, of organs, of species in exhaustive detail without repeating to one’s self the evolutionist mantra “birds come from reptiles… birds come from reptiles”.

As it turns out all of biology, physics, chemistry, genetics (including harmful mutations occuring everyday in static genomes) can be observed, studied and discovered without the mantra “birds come from reptiles” or the mantra “there is no god” or the mantra ” this could only happen by itself over billions of years of time” or the mantra “there must be a multiverse… there must be a multiverse”.

Even though – for the diehard evolutionist this may appear to be an impossibility.

in Christ,

Bob


An apology to PUC

Why has the SDA Church not published a scientific text on origins, compliant with FB# 6, to be taught at all Adventist Institutions? Can you really blame the institutions if such texts are not available? Or if they are why are you not promoting them as standardized texts.
Sean, as a leading advocate for overwhelming evidence supporting six day day recent creation, why don’t you simply write and publish a textbook and submit it to the GC for approval? After all you constantly refer to your website as containing such source material.

Ken – nobody here is accusing PUC or SAU or AU or Southerwestern or LLU or any of our other universities (except possibly LSU) of teaching our students that evolutionism is the right science answer for origins or the flood.

In the recent GC session one of the items that came to light is the effort to put science text books together that show an SDA POV and that treet evolutionist speculation as “speculation”.

As it turns out – there is a lot of anatomy and physiology of plants and animals – right down to the genes that is all easily promoted in an SDA context. Where we draw the line is at the level that even atheist evolutionists like Colin Patterson claimed are “stories from the fossil record” about how “one thing came from another – stories easy enough to make up but they are not science”.

in Christ,

Bob


Recent Comments by BobRyan

Supreme Court Decision on Church Employment Case

Mack Ramsy:: : but the one thing we know for certain is that it was designed to change. There are so many back up and redundancies designed to make whatever changes that DNA faces to be profitable for the organism, or if their deleterious to ensure they don’t damage the subsequent generation (yes there are very complex methods for doing this) The immune system in fact does it intentionally.

BobRyan:
Obviously the references above to “designed” and “intention” could not be overlooked by the objective unbiased reader applying a bit of critical thinking to the topic. And so my response below merely states the obvious point of agreement on a part of that post.

No wonder the application of a bit of critical thinking just then – demands that we conclude from your remarks above – that you are an example of an evolutionist that is strongly in favor of Intelligent Design. I too favor I.D.

Mack Ramsy:
Obviously the references abov

I don’t believe in ID as it’s traditionally defined. I believe that God created a system designed to evolve.

BobRyan:
Obviously the references abov
In your earlier statement you claimed that system was designed with “redundancy and backup” features. That is not something rocks, gas and water could ever do – hence the term “Intelligent Design”.

But perhaps you have access to more highly advanced rocks, gas and water?

Also you mention “intention” as if the immune system was deliberately designed with an end goal in view.

As it turns out – it is those “intention” and “Intelligent Design” aspects (so key to your response above) that are at the very heart of I.D. enabled science were we have the freedom to “follow the data where it leads” even if it leads to a conclusion in favor of design that does not fit atheist dogma about there “being no god”.

how odd then that you seem to later back pedal on your prior observation.

Thus you seem to be in somewhat of a self-conflicted position at the moment.

At least given the content of your statements about “intent” and “backup systems” and “redundancy” designed into the systems themselves (even to the point of “error correction” as we see in the case of nucleic polypeptide amino acid chains and their chiral orientation).

Of course all that just gets us back here
http://www.thebranch.org/videos/Creation_Calls.mov

Mack&#032Ramsy: My language in this forum is not formal. Try not to get caught up in semantic issues.

Out of curiosity is that statement supposed to provide a solution to just how it is that something “not designed” is able to exhibit unique design characteristics such as “back up systems” – “redundancy” – error correcting mechanism and an “immune system with intention” regarding a specific outcome or goal?

No doubt the study of biology most definitely shows us that such things are present “in nature” based on “observations in nature” – and so you are right to state it as you did.

So if you are then going to double back and reject what you just affirmed – what do you have by way of “explanation” for such a self-conflicted course?

Reaching for a solution of the form – “Pay no attention to my actual words if they do not serve to deny I.D.” does not provide as satisfactory resolution to the problem as you may have at first supposed.

in Christ,

Bob


Strumming the Attached Strings
@David Read:

Erv Taylor is not “afraid” to post here – but he is “Afraid” to have well thought out views posted on AToday that do not flatter his agenda.

That was not news right?

in Christ,

Bob


Michigan Conference vs. LSU – Right Wing Politics or Truth in Advertising?
@John J.:

John&#032J&#046: The fact remains, any decision direction or policy made by a church, conference, union or GCEC can be reversed or changed by those they serve.

Agreed and the fact that the constituency are not voting to reverse it – is a sign that this is not merely the views of the Administration in Michigan.

As for hierarchy – there is no doctrinal authority in the administrators.

And as for administrative hierarchy – the GC leadership has no authority to dismiss rogue teachers which is one of the reasons that this particular meltdown at LSU seems to go on and on and on. It slows at times and it speeds up at other times – but the fire is not simply put out.

in Christ,

Bob


A “Christian Agnostic”?

ken:: Let’s continue shall we. You posit that Adam and Eve were producing telomerase as adults as a result of eating fruit from the tree of life. Would you agree that the production of adult telomerase was a direct result of the environment or did the gene(s) affecting production of the a enzyme as adults mutate in their progeny?

1. I never stated whether the fruit from the Tree of Life provided the telemerase enzyme or simply provided a trigger enzyme/protein that caused Adam and Eve to produce Telemerase. Either way the end result was the same.

2. The salient point is that we have a known mechanism that affects the aging of cells starting with new borns.

This is simply “observation in nature” given in response to your question about an observed mechanism in humans for the 900 year life span the Bible mentions.

BobRyan:
It is hard to “do the study” without having them under observation.

1. But it is not hard to see the gradual decline in ages over time.

2. It is not hard to see the Bible declare that access to the Tree of Life was the determining factor.

3. It is not hard to see that even in humans today – the ability remains for us to produce telemerase – but we quickly lose that ability.

4. It is not hard to see what effect that has on the telomeres of infants.

The list of knowns for this mechanism are far more impressive than the “I imagine a mechanism whereby static genomes acquire new coding genes not already present and functioning in nature and that this happens for billions of years”.

Ken: Hi BobWe are making good progress!Thanks for your admitting thaf we do not have Adam and Eve or their progeny under observation to do the study.

My pleasure.

Let’s look at the empirical results of your observation. There is no physical evidence that the progeny or descendants lived to 900 years, right? Thus there is no physical evidence that the tree of life provided longevity through the increased production or activation of telermerase right?

There is evidence that a mechanism does exist whereby access to an enzyme would in fact affect the aging process of human cells.

That mechanism is observed in nature to be related to the enzyme Telemerase.

There is a ton of evidence that food contains enzymes and proteins and that the human body can produce enzymes in response to the presence of trigger proteins and enzymes.

It is irrefutably true that humans still today produce telemerase in the case of infants just before birth. Impossible to deny it – though you seem to want to go down that dead end road.

You asked about the “mechanism” that can be observed today that would account for long ages of life recorded in the Bible.

You now seem to be pulling the classic “bait and switch” asking for the video of the people living for long ages before the flood.

Nice try —

As I said before – your method is along the lines of grasping at straws in a true “any ol’ exuse will do” fashion.

in Christ,

Bob


SDA Darwinians compromise key church doctrines
Rev 21 does not say the planet has no light – it says the City has no NEED of light from the Sun.

The inconvenient deatils point to the fact that the New Earth will have a Sun and Moon but the New Jerusalem will have eternal day due to the light of God’s presence.

This is not the hard part.

in Christ,

Bob