@Eddie: The “striking phenotypic differences, and even unique genetic differences” …

Comment on An apology to PUC by Sean Pitman.

@Eddie:

The “striking phenotypic differences, and even unique genetic differences” among different populations of humans and dogs are the results of random mutation, genetic drift, natural selection or (in the case of dogs) artificial selection–not “some span of reproductive isolation.”

It doesn’t matter how the reproductive isolation is achieved, be it “artificial” or “natural”. The resulting phenotypic differences are much more obvious between certain breeds of dogs or even various human ethnic groups than between certain “cryptic” species.

The reason why cryptic species are given taxonomic status while various breeds of dogs and human ethnic groups are not seems arbitrary to me. There really is no clear dividing line for taxonomic status on the one hand, but not on the other…

Humans don’t depend on the color or texture of eyes, hair and skin to avoid mating with chimps or apes, or even different groups of humans.

Are you kidding me? Humans are indeed biased in the choice of a mate toward those of similar phenotypic appearance. While this is not a universal rule (as is also the case with many kinds of cryptic species who also experience the occasional hybrids), it is certainly a bias.

When a female poodle is in heat, it doesn’t matter what “breed” a male dog belongs to, it is equally stimulated and could care less about the length, color or texture of eyes, hair, ears, snout, legs, tail, etc. The reproductive isolating method between dogs (genus Canis) and foxes (genus Vulpes) is likely based on olfaction rather than external morphology.

Have you considered the efforts of a Great Dane to mate with a chihuahua? Come on now, there are clear examples of not only artificial but natural reproductive isolate between various breeds of dogs and even between various human ethnic groups. Aborigines have arguably experienced some time of natural isolation, as have numerous other ethnic groups of modern and ancient humans. Unique phenotypic and even genotypic features were realized that are arguably more significant than the differences between the songs or nest structure of cryptic species of birds or the other very minor variations between cryptic species of frogs or giraffes, etc…

Again, don’t pretend like this is entirely objective science. It isn’t. There is a a fair amount of subjectivity in play here…

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com

Sean Pitman Also Commented

An apology to PUC
@OTNT_Believer:

Must you keep harping on the one statement on Darwin’s finches that few other than yourself and maybe some other creationists disagree with?

I have yet to see you present one phenotypic or genetic difference between any of Darwin’s Finches and other members of the Dome-nest Clade which could not be rapidly realized in a few thousand years. Certainly a 0.3% difference in cytochrome b isn’t a significant problem. I’m not sure what else makes you think that Darwin’s Finches are no uniquely evolved that they could not be explained as originating from Noah’s Ark a few thousand years ago?

As far as your arguments for the date of the first Egyptian dynasty being preceded by over a thousand years of cultural development, it simply doesn’t take very long for groups of humans to develop complex cultures and governments. Also, there are those who argue that the date for the first dynasty is more likely to be less than 4,500 years ago. Either way, the dating of Egyptian dynasties is hardly a very solid basis for challenging the historical SDA position on origins…

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


An apology to PUC
@OTNT_Believer:

And the fact that taxonomists use a b it of subjectivity is a new revelation? Come on Sean, you are nitpicking. Of course there is some subjectivity.

Hey, I’m not the one who came out and said that the differences between Darwin Finches and all other birds were so dramatic and clear cut and objectively understood that they could not be reasonably explained in just a few thousand years… or that the Egyptian dynasties are definitively known to go back over 6,000 years (when they probably go back no more than 4,500 years)…

A “bit” of subjectivity involved here? – no?

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


An apology to PUC
@Eddie:

Song is a reproductive isolating mechanism for many species of birds. Reciprocal playback experiments demonstrate that birds strongly prefer to mate with their own song type. If they don’t want to mate with each other they are reproductively isolated–which is the criterion of the biological species concept.

That’s my point. The “biological species concept” can be based on something as minor as a bird’s preference for the song of another bird… without any other distinguishing features that would prevent successful mating or the production of viable and fertile offspring. Certain types of birds are certainly notoriously picky about choosing a mate – that’s a given. The choice can hinge on extremely minor differences in appearance or song or even nest building skills. Yet, at the same time, far more striking phenotypic differences, and even unique genetic differences, between various breeds of dogs or even between different human ethnic groups which have been established via some span of reproductive isolation are not classified as different “species”? Why not? – even though some of these phenotypic differences do in fact influence mating selection (animals and humans are simply biased to mate with those who are most similar – as a rule of thumb)?

I’m sorry, but there seems to me to be more than a bit of subjectivity involved in who is and who is not given taxonomic status as a unique “species” due to reproductive isolation. Even your argument on the use of differences in chromosome number between different groups of animals is not a consistent marker of unique “species”.

You do realize that some fertile humans have different chromosome numbers than the usual 46? – right? – due to Robertsonian translocations? Should they therefore be classified as a different “species”? In fact, human chromosome #2 has been fused during some population bottleneck. It used to be two separate chromosomes. In other words, humans originally had 48 chromosomes. Did this fusion event create a “new species” of humans?

Hint: It isn’t the extra chromosome that makes apes functionally unique from humans. It is the unique information coded by all the chromosomes (largely found in the “non-coding” regions of the genome) that produces the key functional differences and is responsible for the inability of viable hybridization between humans and apes…

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


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