@OTNT_Believer: Either you are showing your ignorance or you are …

Comment on An apology to PUC by Sean Pitman.

@OTNT_Believer:

Either you are showing your ignorance or you are just playing with me. No mainstream definition of species has anything to do with divergence of a DNA sequence. Brand and every other geologist uses the biological species concept in combination with the morphological species concept.

There are in fact mainstream definitions of species which are almost entirely dependent upon the divergence of a DNA sequence independent of any detectable morphologic difference. For example, “cryptic species” are defined as, “a group of species which satisfy the biological definition of species—that is, they are reproductively isolated from each other—but whose morphology is very similar (in some cases virtually identical)…

For example, mitochondrial DNA research published in January 2008 suggests that there are at least 11 genetically distinct populations of giraffes. Similar methods also found that the Amazonian frog Eleutherodactylus ockendeni is actually at least 3 different species that diverged over 5 million years ago.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptic_species_complex

A similar basis has been used in literature, as already noted for you, to establish a very close relationship between Darwin Finches and several other types of birds within the “domed nest clade”… with sequence divergence of cytochrome b as little as 0.3%. “Thus, most species within the domed nest clade exhibit levels of genetic divergence less than that of pairs of congeneric, closely related species of birds. This contrasts with the traditional taxonomies that have placed these species into 13 different genera and three different families based on dramatic morphological differences in bill size and other characters.”

http://eebweb.arizona.edu/courses/galapagos/handouts%202009/articles%202009%20for%20web/phylogenetic%20relationships.pdf

So, unless you qualify what type of difference you’re talking about when you use the term “macroevolution”, this term can mean many very different things that are not necessarily related to any novel functional difference between the gene pools under consideration beyond very low levels of functional complexity (as defined by Hazen et. al.)…

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com

Sean Pitman Also Commented

An apology to PUC
@OTNT_Believer:

Must you keep harping on the one statement on Darwin’s finches that few other than yourself and maybe some other creationists disagree with?

I have yet to see you present one phenotypic or genetic difference between any of Darwin’s Finches and other members of the Dome-nest Clade which could not be rapidly realized in a few thousand years. Certainly a 0.3% difference in cytochrome b isn’t a significant problem. I’m not sure what else makes you think that Darwin’s Finches are no uniquely evolved that they could not be explained as originating from Noah’s Ark a few thousand years ago?

As far as your arguments for the date of the first Egyptian dynasty being preceded by over a thousand years of cultural development, it simply doesn’t take very long for groups of humans to develop complex cultures and governments. Also, there are those who argue that the date for the first dynasty is more likely to be less than 4,500 years ago. Either way, the dating of Egyptian dynasties is hardly a very solid basis for challenging the historical SDA position on origins…

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


An apology to PUC
@Eddie:

The “striking phenotypic differences, and even unique genetic differences” among different populations of humans and dogs are the results of random mutation, genetic drift, natural selection or (in the case of dogs) artificial selection–not “some span of reproductive isolation.”

It doesn’t matter how the reproductive isolation is achieved, be it “artificial” or “natural”. The resulting phenotypic differences are much more obvious between certain breeds of dogs or even various human ethnic groups than between certain “cryptic” species.

The reason why cryptic species are given taxonomic status while various breeds of dogs and human ethnic groups are not seems arbitrary to me. There really is no clear dividing line for taxonomic status on the one hand, but not on the other…

Humans don’t depend on the color or texture of eyes, hair and skin to avoid mating with chimps or apes, or even different groups of humans.

Are you kidding me? Humans are indeed biased in the choice of a mate toward those of similar phenotypic appearance. While this is not a universal rule (as is also the case with many kinds of cryptic species who also experience the occasional hybrids), it is certainly a bias.

When a female poodle is in heat, it doesn’t matter what “breed” a male dog belongs to, it is equally stimulated and could care less about the length, color or texture of eyes, hair, ears, snout, legs, tail, etc. The reproductive isolating method between dogs (genus Canis) and foxes (genus Vulpes) is likely based on olfaction rather than external morphology.

Have you considered the efforts of a Great Dane to mate with a chihuahua? Come on now, there are clear examples of not only artificial but natural reproductive isolate between various breeds of dogs and even between various human ethnic groups. Aborigines have arguably experienced some time of natural isolation, as have numerous other ethnic groups of modern and ancient humans. Unique phenotypic and even genotypic features were realized that are arguably more significant than the differences between the songs or nest structure of cryptic species of birds or the other very minor variations between cryptic species of frogs or giraffes, etc…

Again, don’t pretend like this is entirely objective science. It isn’t. There is a a fair amount of subjectivity in play here…

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


An apology to PUC
@OTNT_Believer:

And the fact that taxonomists use a b it of subjectivity is a new revelation? Come on Sean, you are nitpicking. Of course there is some subjectivity.

Hey, I’m not the one who came out and said that the differences between Darwin Finches and all other birds were so dramatic and clear cut and objectively understood that they could not be reasonably explained in just a few thousand years… or that the Egyptian dynasties are definitively known to go back over 6,000 years (when they probably go back no more than 4,500 years)…

A “bit” of subjectivity involved here? – no?

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


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