Comment on An apology to PUC by OTNT_Believer.
@Sean
Part of the problem here is over the definition of a “new speciesâ€. What is often defined as a new species or “macroevolution†is nothing but a different expression of the same underlying gene pool of pre-established genetic options. The gene pool of options didn’t change – only the area of phenotypic expression of the pool. In fact, in order to demonstrate that many types of animals that are given different species and even genus names are actually part of the same original gene pool there are numerous examples of different “species†producing viable and often fertile offspring.
For example, donkeys, horses, and zebras have been given different species names. Yet, they can interbreed and produce viable offspring. This means that their genetic information is the same – that it was derived from the same original gene pool. They only reason that the offspring of a horse-donkey mating (a donkey) is sterile is because there has been a chromosomal inversion in one relative to the other. Such a chromosomal inversion results in chromosomal looping during meiosis and fragmenting of the chromosomal material during genetic crossover that happens during meiosis. This results in defective gametes in the mule and is the reason the mule is sterile. However, it has nothing to do with the informational quality itself – only the arrangement of this information on the chromosome. And, there are many many other such examples.
This interchange is getting a bit tedious. Although I am certainly no expert on geology, I do have expertise in genetics, and your suggestions about speciation being just a rearrangement of genetic material is woefully ignorant. I have seen this concept suggested elsewhere, and only from those who have not thoroughly investigated the topic. Of course, to get the rapid changes you feel must have occurred in such a short span of time, you have to invoke a theory like this. And the horse/donkey/mule story is no surprise whatsoever for geneticists or evolutionists. In fact the concept of speciation via chromosome rearrangement is not a new concept either, and is a way that “rapid†adaptive radiation has apparently occurred. A prime example of just such a case is the genus Oenothera in Western NA. Extensive inversions and translocations have rendered many closely related species in this genus reproductively isolated, leading to many local endemics. But to posit this as the way that all speciation occurs is simply ludicrous. You need to go back to school and take a competent genetics course and then maybe one on molecular systematics. I mean this with no disrespect, but you need to realize that your competency in this area is very low.
As for the “finches†of the Galápagos, we hardly see evidence for a simple rearrangement of genetic material. These birds are so different from any other birds that there has been a long-standing disagreement over how they should be classified—a difficulty that remains today. The following quote from Wikipedia (not the best source, but a ready one, and accurate enough in this case) illustrates the scope of this problem:
“For some decades taxonomists have placed these birds in the family Emberizidae with the New World sparrows and Old World buntings (Sulloway 1982). However, the Sibley-Ahlquist taxonomy puts Darwin’s finches with the tanagers (Monroe and Sibley 1993), and at least one recent work follows that example (Burns and Skutch 2003). The American Ornithologists’ Union, in its North American check-list, places the Cocos Island Finch in the Emberizidae but with an asterisk indicating that the placement is probably wrong (AOU 1998–2006); in its tentative South American check-list, the Galápagos species are incertae sedis, of uncertain place (Remsen et al. 2007).†Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin’s_finches
I could give you literally hundreds of examples of this sort of thing, and your explanation just isn’t relevant at all in these cases. Darwin’s finches represent an example of macroevolution by almost anyone’s definition. Another way of looking at why your interpretation is so far off is to consider dog breeds. Aside from physical difficulties, all breeds of dogs are interfertile, but look at how different they are from one another. And these differences are due in many cases to one or several small mutations. To keep the dog story in perspective, first realize that the current theory of dog origins (which has archaeological evidence to support it) has them being domesticated sometime between 7,000 BC (from where we have the best evidence) to possibly as far back as 30,000 BC. Now, granted, we all have trouble with the idea of something happening over 30,000 years ago, so let’s just assume the 7,000 BC figure is correct (of course, you would see this as problematic as it is pre-flood).
Now I think we can all agree that artificial selection is a much more powerful force than natural selection. So, with this much more powerful force humans have produced numerous distinct breeds of dogs, but no one new species. Why is that? According you your line of reasoning hundreds (or even thousands) of new species have arisen post-flood by natural selection alone working on some kind of genetic rearrangement process. The same process should have been occurring in dogs, and yet there is not one single new species of dog! I could tell the same story with a dozen other domesticated species.
The problem we have here is that you are so quick to tear down the process of macroevolution on the one hand, and then are willing to embrace it again to try and explain the rapid diversification of taxa that must have occurred post-flood. And you are accusing me of blind faith when I am willing to believe the Bible account more on faith than evidence. Well, my friend, what you are doing with genetics and evolutionary theory is just as much a form of blind faith. There are so many holes in your genetic rearrangement leading to speciation theory that I am astonished! Can we talk about something else that you know more about?
I am sorry of I have appeared unkind in my comments here, but you have truly caught me by surprise. I hope you will take the effort to educate yourself a bit better in genetics, especially as it intersects evolutionary biology. Even if your theory were the explanation for all new species, the process, where we do know it has occurred, takes much longer than a few thousand years.
But of course, your “faith†is not affected by the validity of the actual claims made by the Biblical authors regarding the physical world. You claim to be an “agnostic†when it comes to the validity of the actual empirical claims of the Biblical authors. It really doesn’t matter if the Bible is literally true or not – right? Your faith can go with the flow. Why then don’t you believe in the superior credibility of the Book of Mormon or the Qur’an? Amazing…
Wow, you seem to really understand me so well. Actually, my faith in God’s word does not include a faith in any one interpretation. The way my faith works in relation to the Bible is to recognize that the writers were humans inspired by God to write these accounts. Sometimes, in that process, a writer may not know or understand all the facts of the original story, so he writes it to the best of his ability. What my faith allows for is that if the writer of Genesis believed the flood was literally a worldwide flood, it bothers me not the least to still have faith in the Genesis account even if the actual event might turned out to have been local.
I see the problems with the flood akin to those that sometimes occurred with EGW’s inspired writings and utterances. Case in point:
In 1847, James and Ellen White published a tract in which it is announced that she had seen a vision of the planets in our solar system:
“At our conference in Topsham, Maine, last Nov., Ellen had a vision of the handy works of God. She was guided to the planets Jupiter, Saturn, and I think one more. After she came out of vision, she could give a clear description of their Moons, etc. It is well known, that she knew nothing of astronomy, and could not answer one question in relation to the planets, before she had this vision.”
Now some people use this event to claim that EGW obviously was not the inspired prophet the church has claimed her to be or she would have gotten her facts correct. I just don’t think that God is in the business of making sure all the “facts†are correct when his prophets write. The writer of Genesis may truly have believed that the flood had covered the WHOLE world. If we were somehow to discover beyond a doubt that it didn’t actually cover all of it, then we have two choices: 1) Decide the Bible is a hoax and throw it out, or 2) accept the fact that the writer, who had limited knowledge of what worldwide actually would have meant, wrote the story to best of his knowledge. My faith allows me to take the latter approach. Your faith, if based more on the weight of the “scientific†evidence would be obligated to choose the first option. I surely hope we never get incontrovertible proof that the flood was local and could not have been worldwide for the sake of those whose faith is based like yours is.
OTNT_Believer Also Commented
An apology to PUC
@Sean
As far as your arguments for the date of the first Egyptian dynasty being preceded by over a thousand years of cultural development, it simply doesn’t take very long for groups of humans to develop complex cultures and governments. Also, there are those who argue that the date for the first dynasty is more likely to be less than 4,500 years ago. Either way, the dating of Egyptian dynasties is hardly a very solid basis for challenging the historical SDA position on origins…
It’s not just Egyptian Dynasty dates that are problematic, How about other Middle Eastern dates. For example, the Madaba Plains project in which Andrews University participates gives dates for human habitation that extend well back before 2500 BC, i.e. before the flood. How did these remains survive the flood?
Here is a quote from the Madaba Plains Web Site about Umayri:
“Tall al-`Umayri contains many chapters in its story, representing a span of 5,000 years of human life and survival in the area of central Jordan. What follows is the story of `Umayri’s tell formation and discoveries made while taking it apart.
Early Bronze Age, ca. 3000 BC:
At some point near 3000 BC inhabitants from around `Umayri constructed a megalithic dolmen, a large stone memorial.
Early Bronze Age, ca.2500 BC:
This is the earliest major settlement of `Umayri, developed around 2500 BC, which covered most of the site and had no fortification walls.”
Source for the above is: http://www.madabaplains.org/umayri-old/story/story.html
There are also numerous cuneiform tablets dating from more than 1000 years pre-flood. How did these survive?
If you are going to accept the worldwide flood on evidence rather than faith, you need to deal with these kinds of evidence. These data and more from archaeoilogy just don’t fit a worldwide flood model dated to circa 2500 BC.
Hey, I’m not the one who came out and said that the differences between Darwin Finches and all other birds were so dramatic and clear cut and objectively understood that they could not be reasonably explained in just a few thousand years… or that the Egyptian dynasties are definitively known to go back over 6,000 years (when they probably go back no more than 4,500 years)…
A “bit†of subjectivity involved here? – no?
A bit of ad hominem here perhaps? A bit uncalled for I think, especially since it doesn’t even address my comment. And must you keep harping on the one statement on Darwin’s finches that few other than yourself and maybe some other creationists disagree with? Maybe Darwin’s finches are one of God’s kinds, which is my point in making the time reference. If they can’t evolve in a few thousand years, then they must have been created that way.
As for the Egyptian Dynasties, I am no expert, but all tyhe standard references on the subject give ranges for the 1st Dynasty as somewhere in the vicinity of 3000-2600 BC, which if I do my math correctly puts us at about 4600-5000 years ago. And this is a full-blown civilization. Even if we assume the flood happened 5000 years ago, that hardly gives time for a full-blown civilization to form, not to speak of the couple thousand years of evidence for the build-up of said civilization. Either the older evidence somehow miraculously survived the flood, or Egypt was not destroyed by the flood. Or, as you seem to suggest, the dates are all wrong. There sure are a lot of people wrong and you are always right.
By the way, the 3000-2600 BC reference is from http://books.google.com/books?id=lF78Max-h8MC Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs By James P. Allen, 2010, p. 10
An apology to PUC
@Sean
I’m sorry, but there seems to me to be more than a bit of subjectivity involved in who is and who is not given taxonomic status as a unique “species†due to reproductive isolation. Even your argument on the use of differences in chromosome number between different groups of animals is not a consistent marker of unique “speciesâ€.
And the fact that taxonomists use a b it of subjectivity is a new revelation? Come on Sean, you are nitpicking. Of course there is some subjectivity. There is no completely objective criterion for defining species. It’s sort of like saying there is an objective way to determine good writing from bad writing. We rely upon experts who know the organismns involved to decide what is and is not a species. That’s what taxonomists do. As soon as you find an objective method for defining species that can be practically applied, then by all means, publish it. I am sure there are a lot of taxonomists who would love you for it.
Recent Comments by OTNT_Believer
Why those who hate the Bible love blind-faith Christians
Sean, I think that what you say above mischaracterizes those who disagree with you on the “weight of the evidence” issue. At least for me, and for others who have opposed your dogmatic stance, I can see a lot of evidence that life was created by God. In fact, I see the weight of the evidence in favor of creation, considering the fact that evolutionists have absolutely no idea how the first life might have arisen. They flail about with various untenable ideas, and even bring in a concept like the multiverse to solve the intactable problems of probability for eaven the essential molecules of life arising on their own. On this bit of empirical alone there is very strong support for a belief in the Bible or the Koran. And don’t forget that the Koran comes from the same tradition, to some extent, as the Bible, not that I am advocating its acceptance as Holy writ.
I also am not saying there is NO evidence for a worldwide flood or a recent, literal creation, I just don’t see the evidence as overwhelming. A lot of the so-called evidence you and others committed to a literal interpretation of Genesis use is dependent on a variety of assumptions which may be true, but cannot be supported unequivocally. So, I do see some evidence for the traditional SDA position, but am, I hope, honest enough intellectually, to recognize the many things that are uncertain. On the flip side, I see many problems with the traditional evolutionist views too, which is evidence, albeit weak, for other alternatives, including the traditional SDA model.
There is also a variety of other empirical evidence for the Bible, miuch it from fulfilled prophecies and historical corroboration. Although there are some discrepancies between secular and Biblical history, there is enough agreement to support such things as Jesus being a real historical figure and the origins of the Jewish people. Even the Koran provides corroborating evidence for the historicity of Abraham and the early patriarchs. And the Bible is pretty unique in this regard, as the holy texts from say Hinduism or Buddhism show little parallel with secular history and, in fact, tend to be more metaphysically oriented than the Bible.
So, do i believe in the Bible by blind faith? Absolutely not! There is ample empirical evidence to believe that it is the Word of God. What I find problematic is taking evidence that is so marginal scientifically, that were I to present some of the evidence you tout so proudly, i would be laughed at. On the other hand, any honest atheist knows how shaky their belief system is when it comes to the origin of life, so i can bring that up and be taken at least a little more seriously. I can even bring up Intelligent Design, which opponents often do laugh at, because I can see clear scientific principles that tell me that ID is real science. I think evolutionists mainly fault ID because they don’t like the conclusions it makes if something is shown to be intelligently designed, but at least with intelligent design it is theoretical and mathematically based.
So, please don’t keep accusing some of us who simply don’t see your evidence convincing as operating on blind faith. Nothing is farther from the truth.
Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@Sean
Even if God has directly appeared to you, visually, and audibly talked to you, such overwhelming empirical evidence would be great for you, personally, but what about when it comes to sharing your faith with someone else? You can’t transfer your own personal experience with God to someone else. What then can you do? You must appeal to something that both of you share – i.e., access to the same empirical evidence.
Wow, Sean, I can’t even believe you would say this. All believers have access to this kind of evidence and my sharing my personal testimony is part of spreading the faith. This is so foundational to Christianity that I hardly feel it needs repeating! So what if I can tell someone, in detail, how the geologic and biological data all around us are in total harmony with the Bible, if I cannot point others to what Jesus has done in my own life. I don’t know what else to say.
You seem to be caught up in the age old faith vs. reason debate, and you are coming down on the side of reason is of first importance, and without overwhelming empirical, science-based, physical evidence, faith is impossible. Wow! I am so glad you are so confident about the evidence, because that appears to be all you have.
You do realize that God most certainly answers prayers for Hindus, Muslims, Latter-day Saints, etc… right? An answer to prayer is not, however, evidence that the individual’s view on this or that Holy Book is really valid. Your answered prayers, and mine as well, seem to be very good evidence of the existence of a God or God-like presence in the universe. However, evidence for the existence of God, by itself, is not evidence for the Bible being the true Word of God, much less the SDA interpretation of the Bible being the most valid interpretation.
Really, now, God honors people of other religions, even non-Christian ones? The next thing you’re going to tell me is that people from these other religions are going to be saved too! I guess that shows how important it is to be right about which Holy book is the right one. I am reminded of a quote by Leonard Sweet, “It’s the same truth whether from the mouth of Jesus or the ass of Balaam.†What all this tells me is that God is overwhelmingly interested in having a relationship with me, even if I don’t quite have the exactly right picture of Him. And isn’t this the message we want our young people to hear?
Just to be a bit outrageous for a moment, let me suggest that we leave the SDA FB#6 just as it currently is, or better, simply take the exact words as they appear in the Bible, without our interpretation of those words. Then, let all members interpret the exact meaning of those words for themselves. If a member chooses to believe that God created the world via some sort of directed evolutionary process, then fine, as long as they see Him as the creator, and as long as they continue to hold the Sabbath as sacred (It is in our name, don’t you know!)
With that in mind, let’s now suggest that college professors, in the long tradition of academia, be required to cover all the facets of creation and evolution, including what evidence (or lack of) there is for these competing world views. In the tradition of academia, the professor is required to be as objective as possible in this process and should not unduly push her students to believe exactly as she does. This, of course, would mean that the professors at LSU may deserve some censure and redirecting, which I think has happened there, but would not require firing such individuals unless they continue to refuse to teach as required. Along with this, because we are talking about SDA schools, the professor must make the environment supportive for the most conservative interpretations of FB#6, but should also be supportive even of those students who may be atheists.
I make this suggestion, as outrageous as it may sound, because I have been around the church enough to know 1) that there is a diversity of belief regarding creation among our members, 2) that the majority of members could care less exactly how FB#6 is interpreted by others in the church, and 3) that most members believe in the more conservative interpretation of FB#6 and will continue to do so regardless of what you or I or a college professor may say or not say. A college education is not so much for the indoctrination of our young people, as it is for an expanding of their vision of the world from the SDA perspective. part of that is realizing what a diverse church we are.
I have known a few professors, not biology professors, at a few of our institutions which were overtly outspoken about their beliefs in theistic evolution. I have heard some complaints from students who were in these professors’ classes. For the most part those who knew them just tended to ignore their unorthodox views and let it be. I have been troubled in the past over some of these individuals, but as I saw the limited effects they had over the years, I have come to conclude that little damage was done. In fact, I believe more damage would have been done had these individuals been publicly confronted and fired.
Believe it or not, Sean, there are people in our church who are very committed, vibrant, active members of the SDA church who are theistic evolutionists. I also believe that some of our young people fall into this category. If we weed out all our professors who just might believe a little differently than the party line, where will these students find leaders that can relate to them, that can be examples for them. Their faith could be much more easily shaken if we marginalize those, whether professors or students, who believe a little differently. Of course, you might say, such individuals would be better off in another church. How callous! What other church believes that the Sabbath is the Seventh Day and that the Lord is returning soon? Seventh-Day Baptists maybe? Don’t forget, there are social reasons to stay as an SDA too and these are totally valid. We worship as a community for a reason. We are social beings. Many who have grown up in the church would find their faith uprooted if they needed to leave the church.
Let’s not forget the reason for this site in the first place, to bring the situation at LSU to the attention of the church and its leaders. That has been accomplished. The second reason for this site to continue to exist would seem to me to be a place to discuss the issues, which should avoid continuing to crucify those professors or leaders that, in your opinion, are teaching falsely. Paul wrote two letters to the church in Corinth and then let the leaders deal with it. I doubt they did a perfect job, but Paul did not continue to rail against them. Maybe ET should do the same.
Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
My answer: it wouldn’t affect my faith whatsoever. I spend time daily with God and I KNOW that He can be trusted, regardless of what modern science has to say. I would remain a steadfast believer of scripture, a devoted Christian, and a proud Seventh-day Adventist.
I can hardly believe that Seventh-day Adventists actually belittle the faith of other believers in the name of “present truth.†How very strange. I’m keenly disappointed that most individuals here, including you, condone rather than condemn Sean Pitman’s belief system and actions.
I haven;t been asked this question, but I agree 100% with the good Professor’s answer. The strongest evidence I have that my belief in God and the Bible is real is my own personal experience with God. He has answered prayers many a time and I have sensed His presence at many critical points in my life. If I were to discover that when the Genesis account says “the waters covered the whole earth” (my paraphrase) should be historically interpreted as a local event, that would not change my faith in God or His word one iota. Even if the literal nature of the creation story were to be proven to have been a series of events over thousands or millions of years, this would not change my faith in God or His word, or even my belief in the Sabbath. Were such things to change my faith I would have to turn my back on a lifetime of personal, relational evidence that God has been at work in my life.
How many Fundamental Beliefs of the religious community of His day did Jesus violate? Just compare Jesus’ actions with the Levitical laws the Pharisees held so dearly, and He comes off pretty badly. In every case where Jesus appeared to have broken the law, it was because He valued the person and the relationship over the the man-made interpretations of the law.
Would I rather have someone like Dr. Ness, whose students, both current and former, overwhelmingly supported him as a devoted and caring Christian teach my kids? Or would you rather have someone like Sean Pitman, who is adherent to the SDA fundamental beliefs to the nth degree (although there seems to be some question concerning FB#1) who frequently displays a judgmental and combative spirit teach my kids? How many of our young people would be able to stand up to the battering they might receive from some of the stronger personalities battling for the SDA fundamental beliefs in creation as they see them? I know enough of our SDA students to say that we might well lose many more were this the kind of teaching they were to receive.
I’m sorry, but my faith is too important to be put in the hands of science.
Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@Bob
How to you correlate that with the biblical account?Or do you consider the biblical account as pure myth, with no factual data? If so, why consider that the biblical account refers to any kind of literal flood?Just wondering … (Quote)
Kris responds:
That’s a good question. I do not consider the flood account as pure myth, or as a myth at all. All I said was I believe that the flood is a local event
Then you are using an extreme form of eisegesis to bend the text to the usages of evolutionism.
When I say “God said†I refer to the fact that the Bible is to be accepted by Seventh-day Adventist Christians as the Word of God.
I would hardly call attempting to interpret the meaning of the word “earth†as anything but the “whole earth†“bending the text.†The Hebrew word in question (From Strongs) is:
H776
×רץ
eh’-rets
From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): – X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.
It is a word used for a lot of things from local to probably global (although the ancients’ understanding of “global†is not completely certain, let along precisely what the writers of Genesis might know of the “whole earth.†At any rate, there are quite a number of texts that use the term “whole earth.†Many of these texts could be interpreted either in a local or global sense (and many are ambiguous in context). But below I list, after the couple of texts in Genesis, several texts that clearly are better interpreted in a local sense, as they would have little meaning in a global sense. So, given the broad use of the phrase “whole earth†it hardly seems extreme to suggest that the use of the phrase in Genesis could be a local usage, especially in light of the probable ignorance of those in the Middle East of the literal “whole earth.â€
Of course, interpretation is not really the point to Sean and his supporters here. It has to be literally worldwide or they see themselves losing the one possible explanation of the fossil record that they think shows a recent, literal creation. I don’t think our interpretation of the flood account should be encumbered in this way. A worldwide flood doesn’t explain the fossil record very well anyway, and the fact that young life creationists “need†a worldwide flood should not inform our interpretation of the Biblical record.
And just for the record, I don’t see interpreting the Genesis Flood as a local event as questioning the sacredness of the Bible or the accuracy of its writers. I am talking about interpretation of the text. Interpreting a text in a manner that may be different than the traditional SDA approach hardly constitutes questioning the authenticity or accuracy of the Bible. I just question a dogmatic interpretational approach to the Bible.
(Gen 8:9) But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.
(Gen 9:19) These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.
(Exo 10:15) For they covered the face of the whole earth, so that the land was darkened; and they did eat every herb of the land, and all the fruit of the trees which the hail had left: and there remained not any green thing in the trees, or in the herbs of the field, through all the land of Egypt.
(Psa 48:2) Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.
(Jer 50:23) How is the hammer of the whole earth cut asunder and broken! how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations!
(Jer 51:41) How is Sheshach taken! and how is the praise of the whole earth surprised! how is Babylon become an astonishment among the nations!
(Lam 2:15) All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth?
(Eze 32:4) Then will I leave thee upon the land, I will cast thee forth upon the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain upon thee, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with thee.
(Dan 8:5) And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
Dr. Ervin Taylor: ‘A truly heroic crusade’
Why the cold feet gentleman? Why the protective mantra? I’m dismayed at this.
Debates are a normal, active, dynamic part of life. Let’s not pre-judge or worry about the outcome.
I’m not worried about the outcome, I’m just enough of a cynic to believe that debates are about putting on a show, not sharing truth. Proof of that is what is made of debates after the fact. Often, both sides claim to have won, and whoever is able to make up the best story about the debate controls the future narrative, regardless what was actually debated. Case in point is the Huxley/Wilberforce creation/evolution debates. Most people nowadays believe Huxley won, some people at the time thought Wilberforce won, and i think we all lost. 🙂
