PUC Professor: The Noachian Flood was just a local flood?
@Bob

While we are on the subject – here is something Shane posted recently – regarding the video.The class makes sweeping science claims for evolutionism then seeks for a solution by looking into the plasticity of the Bible and the messages God gave to Ellen White.Question: What is the point of continuallying ignoring these key details when someone addresses the subject?in Christ,Bob  (Quote)

First of all, everyone keeps saying that Ness was not playing devil’s advocate, which he himself even admits. Then for some reason the assumption is made that if he is not paying devil’s advocate then he must believe what he is saying. I think that is a false dichotomy. He said he was simply sharing the issues, as he was asked to do. And yes, I have watched the video, and he gives no indication that the stuff he is sharing is what he believes. He is just giving an overview of the issues, with the assumption, apparently, that science has a lot of evidence that makes it an issue. In spite of the assertion here at Educate Truth that the , weight of scientific evidence favors the flood and short term creation, that is not the consensus of many SDA scientists that I know. Leonard Brand, for example, is fairly candid about the many difficulties in maintaining these beliefs. I have read his book “Beginnings” and others he has written, and as far as geology is concerned, it is very difficult to debunk standard geologic theories. In his book he shares many possible problems with the scientific interpretation of geology but is always very careful to say that we don’t know how to reconcile things to the Biblical account. He also expresses a strong faith, though, that we will find the evidence if we keep looking. The point is, these are big issues for many in the church and the very reason Ness shared about them in that class. And part of the reasons they are such big issues is that SDA scientists have no water-tight case to support the flood and a short term chronology.

Now to get a little pedagogical. It is generally understood in higher education that the personal moral and religious beliefs of the teacher should not be the focus of the teaching process. The classroom is a place where knowledge is shared and an attempt is made to help students look at his objectively. As you might have picked up from my posts thus far, I have done my share of teaching in higher ed, so I know the culture.

Now, SDA and other religious colleges tend to stretch the envelop in this area. As long as the teacher is respectful of the students’ personal views no one will fault a teacher for being somewhat open about their personal beliefs, as long as the classroom is not used to indoctrinate. That is a key thing. Indoctrination is out of place in the college classroom.

My point in saying these things is to help you see that when Ness brings up the various issues he is careful not to personally endorse any of them. They are simply other viewpoints. And since his talk was about issues surrounding origins in the church, he seems to have been rather successful in identifying the issues, given the firestorm of response he has gotten here. So, as an educator he has done a pretty good job of identifying the issues for those religion and theology majors. He even goes to the trouble of outlining the theological issues involved. I hardly think he is endorsing theistic evolution when his outline of the theological problems with going that direction is so clearly troubling. That was his point in bringing it up, I think. And I wouldn’t worry too much about their faith. First, it was only one lecture, and second, most of those kinds of majors I have known were pretty strong in the faith and it would take more than that to shake them. I think it was more damaging to have shared the video outside that classroom, since now people who are not even in a supportive environment where they can ask other faculty or even Ness himself for guidance have seen it.

I also did a bit of snooping around the current PUC Catalog to see if these students will get any further opportunities to deal with the issues brought up in that lecture. And what do you know, there is a class that all religion and theology majors have to take before they graduate that they must take. I refer you now to page 27 of the 2010-12 PUC catalog where you will find the following:

B. Requirements:
1. Scientific Inquiry:
 G SCI 205 Scientific Discoveries**
Students will explore the major discoveries of science
through an interdisciplinary approach.

** Note: Completion of any of the following sequences will
satisfy both science requirement 1 (Scientific Inquiry) and
science requirement 2 (Insight through Investigation):
BIOL 101-102/ Human Anatomy-Human Physiology/
MICR 134 General Microbiology
BIOL 111-112-113 Biological Foundations
CHEM 111-112-113 General Chemistry
PHYS 111-112-113 General Physics
PHYS 211-212-213 Physics with Calculus

Ah, but what is this “Scientific Discoveries” Class? Just some history of science class where the scientific party line is taught? Well, unfortunately, given the briefness of the college catalog, that cannot be determined. And, of course, given your already apparent bias you probably assume the worst.

As it turns out, the course has been taught for a number of years, and although I have heard things about the class every so often, my attention was not focused on the concerns being expressed here. From what little I have picked up, though, Ness seems to give such things as macroevolution and the origin of life by natural causes a through thrashing. Maybe, since there seem to be so many students concerned about how off-base Ness is you could get one of them to send you a syllabus. In any event, the short 40 minute lecture that was posted is not the last word those students will get on the topic.

Oh, and one last point. As far as I know, no other SDA college has a course like the one above, where non-science majors get to grapple with science in an SDA college environment. Of course, I have not perused all their catalogs as thoroughly, so there may well be other such courses I don’t know about.

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Why those who hate the Bible love blind-faith Christians
Sean, I think that what you say above mischaracterizes those who disagree with you on the “weight of the evidence” issue. At least for me, and for others who have opposed your dogmatic stance, I can see a lot of evidence that life was created by God. In fact, I see the weight of the evidence in favor of creation, considering the fact that evolutionists have absolutely no idea how the first life might have arisen. They flail about with various untenable ideas, and even bring in a concept like the multiverse to solve the intactable problems of probability for eaven the essential molecules of life arising on their own. On this bit of empirical alone there is very strong support for a belief in the Bible or the Koran. And don’t forget that the Koran comes from the same tradition, to some extent, as the Bible, not that I am advocating its acceptance as Holy writ.

I also am not saying there is NO evidence for a worldwide flood or a recent, literal creation, I just don’t see the evidence as overwhelming. A lot of the so-called evidence you and others committed to a literal interpretation of Genesis use is dependent on a variety of assumptions which may be true, but cannot be supported unequivocally. So, I do see some evidence for the traditional SDA position, but am, I hope, honest enough intellectually, to recognize the many things that are uncertain. On the flip side, I see many problems with the traditional evolutionist views too, which is evidence, albeit weak, for other alternatives, including the traditional SDA model.

There is also a variety of other empirical evidence for the Bible, miuch it from fulfilled prophecies and historical corroboration. Although there are some discrepancies between secular and Biblical history, there is enough agreement to support such things as Jesus being a real historical figure and the origins of the Jewish people. Even the Koran provides corroborating evidence for the historicity of Abraham and the early patriarchs. And the Bible is pretty unique in this regard, as the holy texts from say Hinduism or Buddhism show little parallel with secular history and, in fact, tend to be more metaphysically oriented than the Bible.

So, do i believe in the Bible by blind faith? Absolutely not! There is ample empirical evidence to believe that it is the Word of God. What I find problematic is taking evidence that is so marginal scientifically, that were I to present some of the evidence you tout so proudly, i would be laughed at. On the other hand, any honest atheist knows how shaky their belief system is when it comes to the origin of life, so i can bring that up and be taken at least a little more seriously. I can even bring up Intelligent Design, which opponents often do laugh at, because I can see clear scientific principles that tell me that ID is real science. I think evolutionists mainly fault ID because they don’t like the conclusions it makes if something is shown to be intelligently designed, but at least with intelligent design it is theoretical and mathematically based.

So, please don’t keep accusing some of us who simply don’t see your evidence convincing as operating on blind faith. Nothing is farther from the truth.

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Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@Sean

Even if God has directly appeared to you, visually, and audibly talked to you, such overwhelming empirical evidence would be great for you, personally, but what about when it comes to sharing your faith with someone else? You can’t transfer your own personal experience with God to someone else. What then can you do? You must appeal to something that both of you share – i.e., access to the same empirical evidence.

Wow, Sean, I can’t even believe you would say this. All believers have access to this kind of evidence and my sharing my personal testimony is part of spreading the faith. This is so foundational to Christianity that I hardly feel it needs repeating! So what if I can tell someone, in detail, how the geologic and biological data all around us are in total harmony with the Bible, if I cannot point others to what Jesus has done in my own life. I don’t know what else to say.

You seem to be caught up in the age old faith vs. reason debate, and you are coming down on the side of reason is of first importance, and without overwhelming empirical, science-based, physical evidence, faith is impossible. Wow! I am so glad you are so confident about the evidence, because that appears to be all you have.

You do realize that God most certainly answers prayers for Hindus, Muslims, Latter-day Saints, etc… right? An answer to prayer is not, however, evidence that the individual’s view on this or that Holy Book is really valid. Your answered prayers, and mine as well, seem to be very good evidence of the existence of a God or God-like presence in the universe. However, evidence for the existence of God, by itself, is not evidence for the Bible being the true Word of God, much less the SDA interpretation of the Bible being the most valid interpretation.

Really, now, God honors people of other religions, even non-Christian ones? The next thing you’re going to tell me is that people from these other religions are going to be saved too! I guess that shows how important it is to be right about which Holy book is the right one. I am reminded of a quote by Leonard Sweet, “It’s the same truth whether from the mouth of Jesus or the ass of Balaam.” What all this tells me is that God is overwhelmingly interested in having a relationship with me, even if I don’t quite have the exactly right picture of Him. And isn’t this the message we want our young people to hear?

Just to be a bit outrageous for a moment, let me suggest that we leave the SDA FB#6 just as it currently is, or better, simply take the exact words as they appear in the Bible, without our interpretation of those words. Then, let all members interpret the exact meaning of those words for themselves. If a member chooses to believe that God created the world via some sort of directed evolutionary process, then fine, as long as they see Him as the creator, and as long as they continue to hold the Sabbath as sacred (It is in our name, don’t you know!)

With that in mind, let’s now suggest that college professors, in the long tradition of academia, be required to cover all the facets of creation and evolution, including what evidence (or lack of) there is for these competing world views. In the tradition of academia, the professor is required to be as objective as possible in this process and should not unduly push her students to believe exactly as she does. This, of course, would mean that the professors at LSU may deserve some censure and redirecting, which I think has happened there, but would not require firing such individuals unless they continue to refuse to teach as required. Along with this, because we are talking about SDA schools, the professor must make the environment supportive for the most conservative interpretations of FB#6, but should also be supportive even of those students who may be atheists.

I make this suggestion, as outrageous as it may sound, because I have been around the church enough to know 1) that there is a diversity of belief regarding creation among our members, 2) that the majority of members could care less exactly how FB#6 is interpreted by others in the church, and 3) that most members believe in the more conservative interpretation of FB#6 and will continue to do so regardless of what you or I or a college professor may say or not say. A college education is not so much for the indoctrination of our young people, as it is for an expanding of their vision of the world from the SDA perspective. part of that is realizing what a diverse church we are.

I have known a few professors, not biology professors, at a few of our institutions which were overtly outspoken about their beliefs in theistic evolution. I have heard some complaints from students who were in these professors’ classes. For the most part those who knew them just tended to ignore their unorthodox views and let it be. I have been troubled in the past over some of these individuals, but as I saw the limited effects they had over the years, I have come to conclude that little damage was done. In fact, I believe more damage would have been done had these individuals been publicly confronted and fired.

Believe it or not, Sean, there are people in our church who are very committed, vibrant, active members of the SDA church who are theistic evolutionists. I also believe that some of our young people fall into this category. If we weed out all our professors who just might believe a little differently than the party line, where will these students find leaders that can relate to them, that can be examples for them. Their faith could be much more easily shaken if we marginalize those, whether professors or students, who believe a little differently. Of course, you might say, such individuals would be better off in another church. How callous! What other church believes that the Sabbath is the Seventh Day and that the Lord is returning soon? Seventh-Day Baptists maybe? Don’t forget, there are social reasons to stay as an SDA too and these are totally valid. We worship as a community for a reason. We are social beings. Many who have grown up in the church would find their faith uprooted if they needed to leave the church.

Let’s not forget the reason for this site in the first place, to bring the situation at LSU to the attention of the church and its leaders. That has been accomplished. The second reason for this site to continue to exist would seem to me to be a place to discuss the issues, which should avoid continuing to crucify those professors or leaders that, in your opinion, are teaching falsely. Paul wrote two letters to the church in Corinth and then let the leaders deal with it. I doubt they did a perfect job, but Paul did not continue to rail against them. Maybe ET should do the same.

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Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’

My answer: it wouldn’t affect my faith whatsoever. I spend time daily with God and I KNOW that He can be trusted, regardless of what modern science has to say. I would remain a steadfast believer of scripture, a devoted Christian, and a proud Seventh-day Adventist.
I can hardly believe that Seventh-day Adventists actually belittle the faith of other believers in the name of “present truth.” How very strange. I’m keenly disappointed that most individuals here, including you, condone rather than condemn Sean Pitman’s belief system and actions.

I haven;t been asked this question, but I agree 100% with the good Professor’s answer. The strongest evidence I have that my belief in God and the Bible is real is my own personal experience with God. He has answered prayers many a time and I have sensed His presence at many critical points in my life. If I were to discover that when the Genesis account says “the waters covered the whole earth” (my paraphrase) should be historically interpreted as a local event, that would not change my faith in God or His word one iota. Even if the literal nature of the creation story were to be proven to have been a series of events over thousands or millions of years, this would not change my faith in God or His word, or even my belief in the Sabbath. Were such things to change my faith I would have to turn my back on a lifetime of personal, relational evidence that God has been at work in my life.

How many Fundamental Beliefs of the religious community of His day did Jesus violate? Just compare Jesus’ actions with the Levitical laws the Pharisees held so dearly, and He comes off pretty badly. In every case where Jesus appeared to have broken the law, it was because He valued the person and the relationship over the the man-made interpretations of the law.

Would I rather have someone like Dr. Ness, whose students, both current and former, overwhelmingly supported him as a devoted and caring Christian teach my kids? Or would you rather have someone like Sean Pitman, who is adherent to the SDA fundamental beliefs to the nth degree (although there seems to be some question concerning FB#1) who frequently displays a judgmental and combative spirit teach my kids? How many of our young people would be able to stand up to the battering they might receive from some of the stronger personalities battling for the SDA fundamental beliefs in creation as they see them? I know enough of our SDA students to say that we might well lose many more were this the kind of teaching they were to receive.

I’m sorry, but my faith is too important to be put in the hands of science.

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Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@Bob

How to you correlate that with the biblical account?Or do you consider the biblical account as pure myth, with no factual data? If so, why consider that the biblical account refers to any kind of literal flood?Just wondering … (Quote)
Kris responds:
That’s a good question. I do not consider the flood account as pure myth, or as a myth at all. All I said was I believe that the flood is a local event
Then you are using an extreme form of eisegesis to bend the text to the usages of evolutionism.
When I say “God said” I refer to the fact that the Bible is to be accepted by Seventh-day Adventist Christians as the Word of God.

I would hardly call attempting to interpret the meaning of the word “earth” as anything but the “whole earth” “bending the text.” The Hebrew word in question (From Strongs) is:
H776
ארץ
eh’-rets
From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): – X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.

It is a word used for a lot of things from local to probably global (although the ancients’ understanding of “global” is not completely certain, let along precisely what the writers of Genesis might know of the “whole earth.” At any rate, there are quite a number of texts that use the term “whole earth.” Many of these texts could be interpreted either in a local or global sense (and many are ambiguous in context). But below I list, after the couple of texts in Genesis, several texts that clearly are better interpreted in a local sense, as they would have little meaning in a global sense. So, given the broad use of the phrase “whole earth” it hardly seems extreme to suggest that the use of the phrase in Genesis could be a local usage, especially in light of the probable ignorance of those in the Middle East of the literal “whole earth.”

Of course, interpretation is not really the point to Sean and his supporters here. It has to be literally worldwide or they see themselves losing the one possible explanation of the fossil record that they think shows a recent, literal creation. I don’t think our interpretation of the flood account should be encumbered in this way. A worldwide flood doesn’t explain the fossil record very well anyway, and the fact that young life creationists “need” a worldwide flood should not inform our interpretation of the Biblical record.

And just for the record, I don’t see interpreting the Genesis Flood as a local event as questioning the sacredness of the Bible or the accuracy of its writers. I am talking about interpretation of the text. Interpreting a text in a manner that may be different than the traditional SDA approach hardly constitutes questioning the authenticity or accuracy of the Bible. I just question a dogmatic interpretational approach to the Bible.

(Gen 8:9) But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

(Gen 9:19) These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.

(Exo 10:15) For they covered the face of the whole earth, so that the land was darkened; and they did eat every herb of the land, and all the fruit of the trees which the hail had left: and there remained not any green thing in the trees, or in the herbs of the field, through all the land of Egypt.

(Psa 48:2) Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

(Jer 50:23) How is the hammer of the whole earth cut asunder and broken! how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations!

(Jer 51:41) How is Sheshach taken! and how is the praise of the whole earth surprised! how is Babylon become an astonishment among the nations!

(Lam 2:15) All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth?

(Eze 32:4) Then will I leave thee upon the land, I will cast thee forth upon the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain upon thee, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with thee.

(Dan 8:5) And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

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Dr. Ervin Taylor: ‘A truly heroic crusade’

Why the cold feet gentleman? Why the protective mantra? I’m dismayed at this.
Debates are a normal, active, dynamic part of life. Let’s not pre-judge or worry about the outcome.

I’m not worried about the outcome, I’m just enough of a cynic to believe that debates are about putting on a show, not sharing truth. Proof of that is what is made of debates after the fact. Often, both sides claim to have won, and whoever is able to make up the best story about the debate controls the future narrative, regardless what was actually debated. Case in point is the Huxley/Wilberforce creation/evolution debates. Most people nowadays believe Huxley won, some people at the time thought Wilberforce won, and i think we all lost. 🙂

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