Comment on EducateTruth.com promoted on 3ABN by Michael Farris.
Shannon:
It seems funny to me that when talking about specifics, Michael always seemed to revert to belief issues and not people–that is the problem and truth–you can call the fruit but not the tree.
Really? I find it odd that you separate what a person does from what they are. Did not Jesus say: “You will know them by their fruits” (Matthew 7:16). Give me an example of where I’m erring. Instead of your quick sweep of everything I wrote, be specific instead of generically dismissing me in vague terms. I was very specific. Are you suggesting that those who teach and believe in Evolution should be able to teach in our schools? Are you suggesting that one can be both a Seventh-day Adventist and an Evolutionist? Let me get this straight Shannon, we are “not to try and show people they are unrighteous–just to bring people to Jesus”??? So when John the Baptist called the religious leaders a “brood of vipers” and told them to repent (Matthew 3:7) was he overstepping his bounds? Or when Stephen preached his last sermon before being stoned to death, was he in error for saying: “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your father did, so do you” (Acts 7:51 NKJV). Stephen clearly does not fit into the view you’re holding. We’re to compare Scripture with Scripture. I have no doubt that your stance is appealing to many and that it seems like the more “loving” approach. Yet, the view that is held about love today is abysmally shallow. At length, I disagree with you. Was the Psalmist unloving when he declared: “I hate the double-minded, But I love your law… Depart from me, you evildoers, For I will keep the commandments of my God!” (Psalm 119:113, 115 NKJV).
Listen, I’m not trying to be mean with you. And I agree that we should be careful about how we deal with people. However, correcting and rebuking is a part of the ministry that has been committed to those who will follow Christ. This does not mean we shouldn’t be patient and understanding. Have not all of us been in error or lived in sin? Perhaps some of us are still living in sin? That is between the individual and God. But when a person is openly teaching infidelity, we have an obligation to stand up and resist the given error. It is not unloving to do so. And when those who call themselves followers of Christ are being lulled by the most insidious and obvious error, it is time for correction and rebuke. The Scriptures are clear in this matter, as unpleasant as it may be and sound.
I’m more than happy to go through the Scriptures on this link with anyone who thinks otherwise. Show me where I’m wrong in the Word of God. As Christians we are to love one another and press on for unity of the faith. But we are also to hold each other accountable through the Holy Scriptures. I disagree with you and Dr. Pitman. But I’m appealing to the Scriptures. Both of the messages I have written have appealed to the Scriptures and Ellen White. I desire unity and I don’t believe we have to agree on every point on some theological issues. However, this issue is as black and white as Sabbath verse Sunday. We certainly wouldn’t allow someone to teach in our theology programs who believed in Sunday Sacredness. Or if someone taught that homosexuality was permissible, it would be worthy of censure. Is this issue any different? Not that our theology programs and universities are beacons of light or that they follow the counsels of Ellen White. I certainly don’t believe they do and this issue is a fruit of the state of affairs in Adventism.
I’m not suggesting that I or anybody can purify another person’s soul or conscience. This is a bait and switch fallacy. The fact is that leaders in the church and lay people should have the ability to correct, rebuke, and instruct in righteousness “that the man of God may complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16, 17). The Scriptures teach that each person is to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. And in this same letter, Paul warned: “Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers” (Philippians 3:2a NKJV). Those who are teaching the infidelity of evolutionary theory in Adventism are evil workers in the church teaching philosophy and vain deceit. There is no way around it. We need not mince words about open rebellion. The early church certainly didn’t, and neither should we. However, we should make sure we are doing everything from a pure heart and in accordance with the Scriptures.
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Michael Farris Also Commented
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Shannon:
Michael: When you become an apostle or prophet–you can write letters–long ones– of discipline with strong language even as necessary.
The idea that I cannot write long and reasoned messages with words of rebuke because I am not a prophet is not biblical. Please give me an “it is written” if your going to make such a statement. Respectfully, it is statements like this that lead me to the unpleasant remark of being “a poor bible student.” Since you mentioned holding church office: I do hold the office of a deacon and accordingly, I am supposed to be able to instruct others in the Word of God, among other things. Perhaps you should reread the message that Stephen gave in Acts 7:1-60. He was a deacon by the way. If we utilize your reasoning then he was overstepping his bounds. The idea that a lay person is not permitted to correct or rebuke or write long letters is absurd.
Do you think the evolutionists will go any easier on you? Especially if you are trying to tell them they are of the devil.
When I debate with evolutionists (atheists) I don’t waste my time telling them they are ignorant of the Scriptures or sharing with them Ellen White statements. The Word of God has already declared them a “fool” (Psalm 14:1). For me to argue with such persons in the manner I have done on this link is equivalent to casting pearl before swine (Matthew 7:6). You are reducing my arguments to trifle pettiness with this question. The issue we are dealing with on this blog relates to Seventh-Day Adventist in leadership positions.
Your quote of Timothy with exposure of sin before the church to reduce the chance of having it happen again–how would you go about that if you were in charge.
If something is done publicly and openly it must be addressed publicly and openly (Galatians 2:11-14). If something is done privately then it must be a private matter, unless the person refuses to turn from their wickedness. The biblical mandate given by Jesus in Matthew 18:15-20 is in in accordance with the law (Deut. 17:6; 19:15). Jesus’ upholding of the law about how there must be two or three witness to judge a matter is apropos to our current conversation.
First of all, they were not to judge a case based on their emotions or with concerns over how the other person may feel. They had to judge the matter in accordance with the oracles of God. In fact, the judgments that God gave to Moses show that He expects no partiality as the 9th commandment makes clear (Exodus 20:16). They (judgments) were given to Israel so they could make righteous judgments. For example: “You shall not circulate a false report. Do not put your hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness” (Exodus 23:1 NKJV). God loathed partiality because it would “pervert justice” (i.e the judgments; Exodus 23:2,6 NKJV). Anyone who is going to help determine a matter must know the Scriptures. This is why Paul told Timothy:
“But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But you must continue in in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from who you have learned them, and that from childhood you have know the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus” (2 Tim. 3:13-15).
The only way Timothy would be able to identify “evil men and impostors” is through a knowledge of the Scriptures. It is the same today. This responsibility may be unpleasant, but as Ellen White said: “True love seeks first the honor of God and the salvation of souls. Those who have this love will not evade the truth to save themselves from the unpleasant results of plain speaking. When souls are in peril, God’s ministers will not consider self, but will speak the word given them to speak, refusing to excuse or palliate sin” (PK 141-142)
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T.R. Perenich:
Your defense was solid. Thank your for taking the time to reason from the Scriptures and for doing so with force of mind. Justin Robinson, I also appreciate your stance as well. It is good to know there are other like-minded brothers in the church.
Blessings,
Michael
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Shannon:
Michael: You have no idea who I am or what my education is. The internet on a discussion site is no place for long explanations and arguments. Basic quotes and beliefs are simple for explanation or understanding. More will not get the job done in this format. Making judgments as to education and ignorance is usually comparative and not too accurate. My statements were made on the other hand off of your ongoing aggressive and demeaning use of wordage in our discussion and discussion with others that don’t happen to agree with you.
You may find that the world will all be much less smart that you if you use agreement with you as the criteria. There are a lot of people that use this as a criteria by the way and I have been treated badly by many of them. Some of them are probably much smarter that you and me put together. Just because of that does not make them right or any more believable.
Respect truly comes as a result of the ability to be respected.
You yourself made subtle accusations about me and my character based upon what I’ve written. This would be unobjectionable, if you pointed out where I’m demeaning people and being “mean spirited.” As it stands, your above response is childish and now I feel bad for engaging you in this dialog. It would be wise to avoid calling a persons name out, and contradicting them, if you do not want to be challenged by them. I think any unbiased reader who as read all my responses would say that I have strong opinions, yes, but that I’m basing them on the Scriptures.
I am not concerned about your education. I do not equate knowledge with education. Titles and accolades mean nothing to me. You could have a Ph.D and it would not matter to me. The wisdom of this world is foolishness to God.
Next, If you don’t believe the internet is a place to make “long explanations” and “arguments” then why are you on this blog? And why are you engaging me in this debate? Conversely, I disagree with you and believe the internet is an excellent place for debate and the exchange of ideas. In case you’re unaware, almost all the arguments Ellen White made, were by way of letter. Most of the letters in the NT are written in defense of a position(s) and with very strong censorious words; they are also sometimes written through “long explanations,” to borrow your complaint about my messages. I have not set out to insult anyone. I simply pointed out your estimations of me and then fairly gave mine of you (to avoid a straw man attack upon you). However, you left out my caveat, wherein I stated that we both have much to learn. And this is true. I don’t think I know it all Shannon. In almost every message I’ve written, I have said I’m open to correction and reasoning from the Scriptures. This is what Protestant Christians do (compare Scripture with Scripture).
Finally, I’m sorry for anyway that I may have offended you. If you point out where I offended you in my above messages, then I will be able to see more clearly where you are coming from. I have no intention of hurting you or anyone else’s feelings on this blog.
It is written: “Bleased are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God” (Matthew 5:9 NKJV).
Sincerely,
Michael
