We all agree, Sean, that everyone is born weak and …

Comment on What does it take to be a true Seventh-day Adventist? by Bill Sorensen.

We all agree, Sean, that everyone is born weak and physically degenerate both morally and physically. Orignial sin means we are born guilty of sin even before the act. For two reasons in the divine context.

1. God knows we will sin because He is sovereign. and…
2. We should know that people are born degenerate and have no option concerning sin unless they are born again. The will is dead, unless the will is generated and informed by the bible and Holy Spirit. No one can choose to do good. They can only choose to do evil. We are not born saved nor are we born already generated by the Holy Spirit. It is a super natural act of God who “puts enmity between Satan and the human family.” And on this we agree as well.

What you do not want to admit is that we are born condemned and guilty in our natural state. So you appeal to individual accountability in light of prevenient grace where the Holy Spirit begins to work immeadiately even on babies and little children to bring them to faith and awareness so they may “escape their heritage of sin, guilt, and condemnation.”

Some claim the cross “cancels the guilt of original sin.” Wieland, Joe Crews, and many others hold this view. Not so. This is wrong. The cross is provisional, even in the context of original sin and original sin is not, ipso facto, canceled because Jesus died for all men. The cross is the means God uses to enlightened the mind of fallen sinners so that each individual can choose to accept Jesus. No one is saved simply because Jesus has died. All are lost, and remain lost and guilty and condemned unless and until they accept Jesus as a personal Savior. David could rightly say….

“The wicked are estranged from the womb, the go astray speaking lies as soon as they are born.” Ps. 58

Because David knows all are born with the spirit of sin and can not do anything but sin unless they are born again.

And finally, no one is born in limbo. We either born saved, or, we are born lost. We are given the ability to change and alter this situation by being born again. But we are born guilty before God because of who we are, not because of what we do. What we do, is because of who we are.

Ellen White concurs in these words….

” Satan’s Power May Be Broken.–Parents have a more serious charge than they imagine. The inheritance of children is that of sin. Sin has separated them from God. Jesus gave His life that He might unite the broken links to God. As related to the first Adam, men receive from him nothing but guilt and the sentence of death. But Christ steps in and passes over the ground where Adam fell, enduring every test in man’s behalf. . . . Christ’s perfect example and the grace of God are given him to enable him to train his sons and daughters to be sons and daughters of God. It is by teaching them, line upon line, precept upon precept, how to give the heart
476
and will up to Christ that Satan’s power is broken. {CG 475.3}”

This statement is too clear to be misunderstood and needs no one to tell us what it means. It means exactly what it says. We are all born guilty of sin by virture of being the children of Adam. But Jesus had made a way of escape. Corporate guilt is a biblical concept.

If you are willing to admit guilt and condemnation is what we already have by way of Adam’s sin. Then we agree. If you deny that we are born guilty of sin unless and until we actually commit sin, then in my opinion, your position is not biblical. This is no small issue as many have admitted like Dennis Priebe who has devoted his whole life ministry to deny this clear bible doctrine.

Bill Sorensen

Bill Sorensen Also Commented

What does it take to be a true Seventh-day Adventist?
@Bill Sorensen:

I can’t believe you would say this, Sean. Surely you do not really believe it….

“The Ten Commandments aren’t really The Moral Law. They are only reflections of the real, underlying, moral Code – i.e., the Royal Law of Love.”

Here, like many, you seperate the motive to obey the objective law of 10 commandments and claim the 10 commandments are not the moral law.

I don’t know who would read our dialogue and draw any conclusion of what is true or not. But I can say, concerning myself, there is nothing you have stated that would change my mind of how I understand the bible.

You claim ignorance eliminates guilt. This means when we are judged, Jesus does not plead forgiveness for sins of ignorance, He claims innocence. No need for pardon if we are not guilty.

At any rate, I appreciate the dialogue as I think you represent a considerable group of people in Adventism including some well know teachers and theologians.

In my opinion, such superficial theology will never be adequate for “the church” to finish the work and present a true comprehensive bible view of sin and salvation.

If people don’t see that what I have presented is bible truth, they will have to answer to God like all of us on every level. If they are wrong, I believe God will forgive their “sins of ignorance” by way of the blood of Jesus.

If I am honestly wrong, I don’t need forgiveness according to your theory. I trust we will both continue to examine and re-examine our position until we all come into a “unity of the faith” as Paul seeks for all church members.

I think we have pretty well exhausted the basic differences and we can let it rest, and I assume you would probably agree at least on this.

Maybe it will eventually become a SDA church issue like WO and/or other differences. I personally hope so. And I hope you continue to support the church’s right to discipline false doctrine. You and others have done a service for the church in general even though some don’t think so.

Bill Sorensen


What does it take to be a true Seventh-day Adventist?
@Sean Pitman:

” First off, yet again, you did not respond to my question about why animals are not morally responsible while humans are? Until you respond to this question, which I’ve asked you many times now, we have no discussion here.”

It’s an inane question, Sean. Animals were never meant to be moral beings nor amenable to moral law. Man does not lose his culpability to the moral law simply because he is ignorant. This is your argument. In the end, your whole problem as I see it, is you limit guilt to awareness. So you claim no one can be “guilty” unless they know they are guilty.

This does not even make sense in the secular world. If the speed limit is 35 and some is going 50 because they don’t know the limit is 35, they are still “guilty” of breaking to law. I don’t care if they know it or not. Their personal awareness and/or knowledge of the law is no factor.

It may well be a factor in how the judge will determine their punishment for violating the law. But it has nothing to do with whether they are guilty or not.

Yet, you and others try to build a theology concerning guilt based on awareness and not on the objective reality.

If you refuse to see the difference, you could never understand guilt in the context of original sin. And so you made this comment….”…..being born evil isn’t quite the same thing as being born guilty of being evil……”

This is the most convoluted statement I have ever read. When you read Kevin’s article on the subject, you become increasingly aware that he has to double talk on and on and explain, and then re-explain what he means until it is obvious, he does not know what he means.

As long as you refuse to acknowledge objective guilt, you can not go beyond the limited view you have of sin, nor can you understand the bible and those who support the doctrine of original sin and guilt.

The doctrine of the Trinity is not more clear than the doctrine of original sin. The bible and EGW support and teach both.


What does it take to be a true Seventh-day Adventist?
@Professor Kent:

Professor Kent, Educate Truth has been mainly about the doctrine of creation vs. evolution. I doubt you could find 1% of the church members who do not embrace the creation week as explained in Gen. 1.

So I suggest the “church” has the duty and obligation to defend the concensus faith of all church believers. We have a clearly defined doctrine on the matter.

And yes, the church is “rigid” on this as well as other biblical confessions of faith that are considered non-negotiable.

The Sabbath, state of the dead, issues concerning the 2nd coming, 1844 and the IJ……etc. There is no “wiggle room” on the basic ideas.

Certainly questions and discussion is profitable. But not in the context of a challenge to the basic validity of these doctrines. So, what is your objection to Sean’s position on these things?

PS. There is no basic concensus agreement on WO. Hopefully, there will be soon.


Recent Comments by Bill Sorensen

The Sabbath and the Covenants (Old vs. New)
” That’s what I’ve been saying (and what Morris Venden and MacCarty have been saying)”

Well, I did not do a complete search on all the MacCarty says or believes. But in the case of Venden, I did do such a study and Venden had a doctrine of “sanctification by faith alone” that was totally outside the bible teaching.

“Faith alone” by definition means we play no part in it. If so, it is not “faith alone”. But Venden’s view of sanctification was definitely “faith alone” and we play no part in it but believe. At any rate, there is more confusion than bible definition in his definition of sanctification, and I think this applies to MacCarty as well. Like I said, I read his book a couple years ago and it was circular with no real definition of what he meant.

But basically, he equated the old covenant with legalism which is bogus. We agree a misapplication of the old covenant is not the same thing as a clear understanding of the old covenant and its purpose. So let’s not take a misapplication of the old covenant, and then claim this is the old covenant.

As you have defended the Sabbath against a misapplication of the new covenant and not called it the new covenant we must do the same with the old covenant. Our conclusion should be that a misapplication of any truth does not equate to the truth that is being misapplied. The confusion continues on many levels in the SDA community today.

Your defense of creation against the liberal agenda is a classic illustration of how the liberal agenda misapplies the new covenant on every level from false teaching to simply denying the bible outright. And all this from a misapplication of the new covenant that creates a false “spirit ethic” that takes the place of the bible and the ten commandments.

I appreciate the dialogue. Some may see the point eventually and some never will. Since we don’t know who’s who in this context, we leave it up to God to sort out the various issues and determine who “gets it” and who don’t.
Bill Sorensen


The Sabbath and the Covenants (Old vs. New)
“You honestly think that you can simply choose to do good through your own willpower.”

I never said any such thing or even suggested it. Did you even read what I wrote. If so, you decided to impute to me something I never said or suggested. Let’s at least try to be objective in our evaluation of what the other person said.

I said the Holy Spirit liberates the will and by the power of the Holy Spirit, we can choose to believe, repent and obey. How then is this your false claim that I think “You honestly think that you can simply choose to do good through your own willpower.”

You rightly point out that without the Holy Spirit, we have no way to know God’s will, let alone do it. And yes, Jesus “puts enmity between sinful beings and the kingdom of Satan.”

But “putting the enmity by Christ” will save no one until and unless they choose to respond in the God ordained way He has stated in the bible. Each individual must choose to first accept the atonement, then repent, and then obey the law. Thus, the Holy Spirit empowers the will, but it is the sinner who must respond. And this is not “doing it on their own” as you seem to imply. Jesus said, “Without me, you can do nothing.” But as Paul said, “I can do all things through Christ which stengthenth me.”

Paul states what he can do by the power of God. And it is not God doing the believing, or repenting or obeying. It is Paul. EGW makes this very clear to refute the mystics who try to claim that Jesus or the Holy Spirit gets in them and does the willing and doing.

” While these youth were working out their own salvation, God was working in them to will and to do of his good pleasure. Here are revealed the conditions of success. To make God’s grace our own, we must act our part. The Lord does not propose to perform for us either the willing or the doing. His grace is given to work in us to will and to do, but never as a substitute for our effort. Our souls are to be aroused to co-operate. The Holy Spirit works in us, that we may work out our own salvation. This is the practical lesson the Holy Spirit is striving to teach us. “It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” THE YOUTH’S INSTRUCTOR
August 20, 1903
Lessons From the Life of Daniel—9
This concerning Daniel and his friends.

She refutes the modern day mysticism that would destroy the will of man and interpret “Christ in you, the hope of glory” totally outside the biblical context.

But “Christ in you, the hope of glory” is the same thing reflected in the words of Paul, “For me to live is Christ.” Meaning, I love Jesus so much my whole life is dedicated to His glory and will.

Our “own works” that she refers to, are those people do outside a biblical relationship with Christ. It does not refer to the works of a true believer who conforms his life to emulate the life of Christ. Where does Skip MacCarty point out this difference?

Much, if not most of modern spirituality in Adventism is pure mysticism that convolutes the identity of Christ and the believer to the point the believer has no identity. It was highly stimulated by Morris Venden who tried to show that “faith alone” applies equally to sanctification as it does to justification. It was and is totally bogus. But it has infiltrated the church by him and others to the point that mysticism is rapidly becoming the major spirituality of the church.

You may mean well, Sean. But like so many others, you don’t take the time to carefully consider the implications of what you say nor explain it is a clear definitive way so that it fits the bible context. If the true bible position on sanctification is clearly presented, then it is obvious we “save ourselves” by the way we respond to the word of God. In which case, the law is salvational, but only in the biblical context. Simply put, we are “saved” by doing what God says and this includes faith in the atonement.

Many are so “hell bent” to avoid what they think is legalism, they wrest the scriptures to their own destruction and not only deceive themselves, but others who do not carefully consider the implications of the conclusion of their false idea and theory.

But to claim that those who reject your view think they can “do it on their own” is a false representation that prejudices others who don’t carefully follow the conversation. Having said all this, I am more than willing for anyone to explain and qualify and re-qualify as many times as necessary to make it very clear what they mean by what they say.

So I agree, sanctification is by faith, but not by “faith alone” in the same context that justification is by faith alone. Without a clear explanation, all we have is ongoing confusion on sin and salvation and the divine factor vs. the human factor in a full and complete view of what the bible teaches about the issues.
Bill Sorensen


The Sabbath and the Covenants (Old vs. New)
“We “work out our own salvation” by simply opening to the door the Spirit of God. That’s our only “work” to do here. That’s the only “work” we can do. The rest is beyond human power.”

Your whole theory is pure mysticism as the rest of your explanation affirms. The purpose of sanctification on the part of God is to liberate the human will for self government. It is the believing sinner who chooses to have faith and repent, and obey the law of God.

Neither is it “automatic” but by careful evaluation of the will of God and the implications of the outcome if we chose not to accept the free offer. You undermine and in the end, destroy the human factor in salvation and the moral accountability of man.

So when we are confronted by the gospel, we must choose to believe, choose to repent and choose to obey. God will not do this for us. Neither will the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the “holy motive” as He inspires and empowers us to “save ourselves” by responding to the word of God exactly as it is stated in the bible.

Much of the SDA church has opted for some mystical non-biblical explanation of the plan of salvation that has no affinity to the true teaching of the bible.

So sanctification is not “just give yourself to Jesus and He will do the rest.”

Basically, you convolute the divine factor and human factor in such a way that you end up negating the human factor altogether.

I doubt anything I would share with you would challenge your thinking, since in the past you have rejected other clear biblical concepts on sin and salvation like the doctrine of original sin. At any rate, if you post my response, perhaps one of your readers will actually see the point and consider the implications of our dialogue.
Bill Sorensen


The Sabbath and the Covenants (Old vs. New)
Yes, as EGW and the bible affirm, we are justified by obedience to the moral law. Not in a legal sense, but in a moral sense. And this is what the Investigative judgment is all about. The word “justification” in the bible has a more comprehensive meaning than people perceive today. Like the word “atonement” and “salvation” the word “justification” has been limited to a non-biblical meaning and application that foreign to the bible and the full meaning the bible gives to these words.

And yes, we save ourselves by the way we respond to the word of God. No, we don’t save ourselves by meriting heaven and earning the favor of God. “If you will enter into life, keep the commandments.” Jesus

This is too plain to be misunderstood except by those who convolute the bible to support their false doctrine. No one is justified by “faith alone” except the special context used by the Reformation to oppose Rome when Rome taught legal merit in the believer’s response to the conditions for salvation.

“Faith alone” in this context was “Christ alone” who stands in the presence of God in our behalf as the meritorious cause of salvation and eternal life. This is not sanctification nor is sanctification “by faith alone” as some faulty teachers try to present and defend. Sanctification is always by faith and works on the part of the believer as we “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.”

And justification by faith in the bible, is the believer’s faith in Christ, not Christ’s faith in the believer. This subject is so confused and warped by SDA scholars it has no affinity to bible teaching and doctrine. So it is the believer’s faith in Christ that justifies. This is the whole theme of Paul and the new testament emphasis and message.
Bill Sorensen


The Sabbath and the Covenants (Old vs. New)
” “All that the Lord has said, we will do.” (Exodus 19:8).”

That’s right Sean. And the Lord said, “The people have well spoken there commitment.” But then added, “Oh that there was such an heart in them to do it.”

The issue was proper motivation based on a clear understanding of sin and all that this implies. God never chided them for their statement of faith but their lack of understanding the sinful human heart.

How is that any different than today in the new covenant era? How many are baptized making the same valid commitment and confession of faith only to find the difficulty of living out the Christian experience.

Neither will Jesus get into anybody and obey the law for them. The motivation will ratchet up as our understanding is increased and the love of God that motivates works in a more dynamic way with the increased knowledge.

But many assume the old covenant was a system of legalism and then contrast the new covenant as a true system of faith. This is bogus. True believers in the old covenant era trusted in Christ. These are the old covenant experience people and not Cain or anyone else in that era who either refused the offer God provided or convoluted it. So those who imply that the old covenant was in and of itself a system of legalism like MacCarty does, have a false idea of old and new covenant that is simply not biblical. And then they try to explain how in the new covenant God writes the law on our heart and not in stone.

God wrote His law on the heart of Abel, Noah, Abraham and every true believer in the old covenant era as Jesus “put enmity between Satan and man” by a revelation of the love of God in His willingness to make atonement for fallen man. The new covenant era simply means God will finish writing His law on the heart of every true believer and this is not some “new” covenant different than the old.

Only in the sense that the atonement promised in the past is now a reality in the present. And this ratchets up the motivation in harmony with the life of Jesus more fully revealed by way of the new covenant writers. It is false doctrine to present the idea that no one had the law “written on their heart” during the old covenant era. Did you ever read the words of David in the Psalms, “Create in me a new heart, and renew a right spirit within me.”?

This is not the new covenant in the old covenant era. There is no “new covenant believer” in the old covenant era. This is impossible. The new covenant is after the fact of the atonement and is based on the time element of the two covenants. The first covenant (old covenant) is based on a future event. The new covenant is based on a past event. This is the whole spirituality of Paul and repeated and affirmed in the book of Hebrews. What God had promised during the old covenant era, He has done.

There is certainly an affinity in both covenants as both are based on Jesus and His sacrifice. Everyone in heaven will have trusted in the atonement of the cross whether it was before Jesus made the atonement or after He made the atonement. Again, I say it is bogus to claim Cain represents an old covenant experience and Abel a new covenant experience. And it is equally false to claim anyone who is a legalist in the new covenant era is an old covenant experience. Namely this, the old covenant is not legalism and never was. Just because people corrupt the old covenant does not equate to claiming they were legalists by virtue of being in the old covenant era.

This is MacCarty’s error and he speaks for more than a few SDA scholars who are as confused as he is. God made no legal covenant with anyone with the exception of His Son. God’s covenant with all is based on the moral law and this is not legalism unless, like the Catholic church, you think you can merit heaven by keeping the moral law.

The moral law, like I said, is a family law and those who refuse to enter into this moral covenant to “obey and live” will never be in heaven. Children in a loving home don’t obey their parents to merit and earn the favor of their parents or earn a place in the family. None the less, they are in covenant relationship with their parents and if they rebel enough, can be disinherited, just like Adam and Eve who rebelled against the family law.

Adam and Eve in a state of sinlessness were not meriting the favor of God. Nor do the sinless angels merit the favor of God. Nor do the redeemed in heaven merit the favor of God. None the less, all are under obligation to obey the family law of God or forfeit eternal life like Adam and Eve in the garden. Love for God never releases anyone from the moral obligation to do God’s will and submit to His authority. This issue is so intense even in the SDA church that many now assume if you love God you have no obligation to obey and that you simply do God’s will because “you want to, not because you have to.” This is bogus and the lie of Satan that he advocated in heaven. We better get it straight and if not, “Spiritualism is at the door deluding the whole world.”
Bill Sorensen