Like or Dislike: 1  0

Shane Hilde: Shane Hilde February 21, 2010 at 7:05 pm

I can’t speak for Wisbey or Schneider, but Elder Graham while not as aggressive as I would like is working hard. Keep in mind it would not be in the boards best interest to broadcast their intentions to the world otherwise LSU could counter act their moves easier.

(Quote)
ReplyReply

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

Shane Hilde:
It’s becoming very obvious that world view of students who come to LSU’s defense in regard to LSU’s treatment of the theory of evolution is sympathetic to the world view of the professors. The students either embrace the theory as a viable option or some other view that undermines the biblical account and the church’s position.

Like or Dislike: 1  0

Like or Dislike: 1  0

A fair comment…After all; you would think if they didn’t know more, re science than you; there would be nothing you need to learn from them…and hence supporting them until you have reason not to; is only reasonable.

“…and we also DON’T like outsiders trying to influence what goes on in our classrooms….”Neptunnus

A very unfair comment….Without the “outsiders”, there would be no funds to educate you and the “great percentage” who are trying to get the equivalent or better of the education the “outsiders” already have to their credit.

“…. We DON’T like how ignorant Adventists who don’t have PhD’s or other reputable qualifications criticizing what professors are teaching, who actually do have the qualifications…..”Neptunnus

Another unfair comment….You would think that it couldn’t be possible for “ignorant Adventists” to have thought to build and staff a unversity of such high standards; high enough ie; to have attracted such intellingencia as yourself and “the great percentage”…if in fact those Adventists were “ignorant” as you assert. May one then take the liberty to suppose that there may well be some inexperience in identifying those who may be “ignorant” given the inexperience of the one doing the identifying;
and given also that because he/she may just now be attending an institution of higher learning that his/her “ignorant” Adventist mom or dad attended many years ago!

“…. I find banishing the theory of evolution from our curriculum a form of brain washing. Intelligent design is just not backed up by scientific evidence.”Neptunnus

True….and neither is a Being called God! So your “ignorant Adventist” mom and or dad must have also “brainwashed” you to believe a fact not “backed up by scientific evidence”.
Now; were you are were you not “brainwashed”? If you were; then don’t you think as one learned; that you must then also give others the right you enjoyed; in being yourself “brainwashed”?

Oh! do you believe there is a God? I should not have assumed you did? afterall; it is not backed up by scientific evidence!

“…. In addition, religion and science are two different methods of studying life. However, when you read the Bible literally, science and religion don’t go hand in hand…”Neptunnus

Very perceptive….And since they don’t; which do you think should have preeminence? Science or the Creator of science? Or do you accept that science created itself? If science created itself,you then do not need religion. I will not insult your intelligence and that of the “great percentage”; in asking if you see the abscence of logic in your suggesting that science and religion are “different methods of studying life”…ie if the “religious” side of the duo[science/religion] is subordinate to science; then what need is there to bore oneself with the inferior author of religion.

“…. But, when you interpret Scripture and dig deeper, science can actually support the Bible….”Neptunnus

And when science doesn’t support the Bible; who then has the ascendancy?
Science…? The Bible…? I would say the Bible….What would you say?
If you would also say the Bible…you would now be as those “——– Adventists”. If you disclaim the Bible…you would as a result disclaim the Author of the Bible. You would then have chosen the side of science or whomever represents the side of science; and such a choice would put you and the “great percentage” as opposing the Author of the Bible.

“… Most of us students are confused to why there is such a big controversy……………..I would love to address the protestors who will come to our campus this Wednesday and say, “Stand if you have a Bachelors. Remain standing if you have a PhD. Stay standing if you have a PhD in a science field. The ones who are still standing are the only ones qualified enough to be here protesting, and for the ones who are qualified obviously you’re PhD doesn’t mean s—.”Neptunnus

I suppose if Jesus happened to be among the protestors(remember He would be on the side of the Bible)he couldn’t stand at all!; his not having any certificate from the unversity of Jerusalem. Would you also say that his raising a dead human and bringing that dead human to life; a feat unheard of; re it’s being able to be replicated by any known human with any number of PhDs; would you say that you would still see Jesus as unqualified to speak to the science of “cell respiration”;[the stuff re mitochondria] given that he is no scientist and has not a PhD….O!..in science!?

“…. But, as a well-mannered University student, I choose to ignore the ignorant and the meddling group of people who claim to value high-education. I am by the way, a conservative and practicing Adventist. Learning about the theory of evolution has actually strengthened my relationship and belief in God, not weakened it….”Neptunnus

Really!…..I would never have guessed. For starters…a practicing Adventist is a true follower of Christ. A true follower of Christ cannot both believe that Jesus, the Lord he follows would be speaking the truth when He said “that He made all things; and nothing was made without Him” John 1:1…if such a follower of Christ also believes it impossible for Jesus to create life in an instant; and in exactly the same fashion as He recreated the dead putrefying cells of Lazarus…electrifying them into manufacturing the chemistry of life[cell respiration stuff]….AND IN AN INSTANT! Or was Lazarus never dead in the first place! Why don’t you run this one by your professors? You may be surprised at the answer from a ‘learned’ PhD! Then try an “ignorant Adventist”…Sure! you already know the answer! Well!as a practicing Adventist yourself; between the professor and the Adventist; in your estimation; which one would you say is “ignorant”?

Courtney

Like or Dislike: 2  3

@David Kendall, BMus, MA:

P.S. This is as confrontational as I ever get in writing or in person (just ask my students). If we want to make any headway on this issue or others facing the church today, we must hold fast to the principle of open and kind discussion with decorum. Otherwise we will devolve into armed camps flinging slings, arrows and broadsides at one another.

Whoah! – no armed camps please. No slings and arrows. I am just looking for “details”. If the details are not there to support the claims that LSU promotes evolutionism as “the right answer” for a doctrine on origins – please show which of them you found to be false.

If the details ARE there to support the claim that LSU religion and biology departments are united in teaching students that evolutionism is “dead wrong” – wonderful. Where are those “details”.

in Christ,

Bob

Like or Dislike: 5  3

Bob said:
Suppose all the first hand testimony from both parents and students that has been posted here about their being brushed aside when they were shocked to discover an “all-for-evolutionism” agenda at LSU

David responds -

I do not deny that there may have been occasions in which faculty members did not respond appropriately to student complaints (I posted about that in another thread). However, if I am to take your “all for evolutionism agenda at LSU” seriously, I would need much more evidence than a couple of syllabus copies of biology classes or unsourced statements attributed to a religion professor. For such an agenda to be pervasive throughout the campus. (and that would have to include me, by the way), I would need to see evidence from multiple faculty in multiple departments across the institution; and that such an agenda is pursued at the expense of all others.

1. I agree that no one has claimed that the agenda for evolutionism has gone “throughout the campus” as in the notion that every faculty member is bought in. We have had a number of discussions here pointing out that such a thing is unlikely.

2. As for Bradley’s “sourced” statements – they can still be found here
http://www.educatetruth.com/la-sierra-evidence/lsu-controversy-receives-secular-media-attention/

3. As for Fritz guys statements published and otherwise — my understanding is that you have said he is in an office very near your office. Surely your talking to him about those statements is not “out of the question”.

Is there something specific in what I have attributed to him that you question?

Bob said:
Then WHERE is the evidence?

Given that we have had LSU members posting here from time to time. Why have they not brought to light their stellar creationist, 28 FB affirming Biology program evidence. Certainly THEY should have been “aware” of it.

Thus the – “there is no truth to the complaints” style argument never really gets off the ground.

David responds:

David said:
The fact that LSU members (I assume you mean students) have not shown overwhelming evidence of a creationist agenda is not evidence that such an agenda does not exist, or that it does (this is an example of the argumentum ad ignorantiam or “appeal to ignorance” argument). I am sure the students did not assume that providing such evidence was expected of them here.

Actually I was referring to faculty. For example Erv Taylor is listed as a guest speaker in one of the biology courses. He has some posts here too as it turns out.

And we have had other faculty members and former LSU faculty members post here as well.

There is much more coming from them about the fact that Evolutionism IS being taught as the “right answer” than anything of the form “Oh no – we teach the students that evolution is dead wrong”.

What am I missing?

Bob said:
At best you get “it is not nice to complain about evolution being in conflict with the Bible and the 28FB”. OR maybe even “when you complain about evoutionism some here do not always put the best possible face on it”.

If that latter form is the point you are making, then let me ask you this.

And then I asked for a comparison between what we find posted on these web pages and 3SG 90-91.

in Christ,

Bob

Like or Dislike: 4  2

are all just fabricated fiction,

are all just second hand fabrications – no truth at all to them.

is all just “second hand fiction”.

Hi Bob,

The above are your own terms, I used “second hand” exclusively, without qualifiers.

Suppose all the first hand testimony from both parents and students that has been posted here about their being brushed aside when they were shocked to discover an “all-for-evolutionism” agenda at LSU

I do not deny that there may have been occasions in which faculty members did not respond appropriately to student complaints (I posted about that in another thread). However, if I am to take your “all for evolutionism agenda at LSU” seriously, I would need much more evidence than a couple of syllabus copies of biology classes or unsourced statements attributed to a religion professor. For such an agenda to be pervasive throughout the campus (and that would have to include me, by the way), I would need to see evidence from multiple faculty in multiple departments across the institution; and that such an agenda is pursued at the expense of all others.

The WHERE is the evidence? Given that we have had LSU members posting here from time to time. Why have they not brought to light their stellar creationist, 28 FB affirming Biology program evidence. Certainly THEY should have been “aware” of it.
Thus the – “there is no truth to the complaints” style argument never really gets off the ground.
At best you get “it is not nice to complain about evolution being in conflict with the Bible and the 28FB”. OR maybe even “when you complain about evoutionism some here do not always put the best possible face on it”.
If that latter form is the point you are making, then let me ask you this.

The fact that LSU members (I assume you mean students) have not shown overwhelming evidence of a creationist agenda is not evidence that such an agenda does not exist, or that it does (this is an example of the argumentum ad ignorantiam or “appeal to ignorance” argument). I am sure the students did not assume that providing such evidence was expected of them here.

The subsequent two arguments to which you refer is an example of a kind of combination of the straw man argument with contextomy. I did not make the arguments, but you were able to easily refute them with an extended quote. Note that I generally qualify my statements with “I speak for myself” or a similar disclaimer. My post was generally a response to specific points and questions by Pastor Carlson, and should be examined in that context (a post-modern concept!).

Solo Deo Gratias,

Pax,

David Kendall
Adjunct Professor of Music
La Sierra University

P.S. This is as confrontational as I ever get in writing or in person (just ask my students). If we want to make any headway on this issue or others facing the church today, we must hold fast to the principle of open and kind discussion with decorum. Otherwise we will devolve into armed camps flinging slings, arrows and broadsides at one another.

Like or Dislike: 4  4

@David Kendall, BMus, MA:

That is the knowledge I have at first hand, and if any of these faculty are purged from the institution and the church (as happened at Southern, PUC and Walla Walla in recent times), it will be Adventism’s deep, deep loss.

In the case of Walla Walla – the Union stepped in (at the direct request of the GC president to the Union president) to address a raging fire of evolutionism that had taken over both the religion department and some of the sciences.

Neutrality in a Religious Crisis: Condemned

In the full light of the sun, surrounded by thousands,–men of war, prophets of Baal, and the monarch of Israel,–stands the defenseless man, Elijah, apparently alone, yet not alone. The most powerful host of heaven surrounds him. Angels who excel in strength have come from heaven to shield the faithful and righteous prophet. With stern and commanding voice Elijah cries: “How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow Him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.” Not one in that vast assembly dared utter one word for God and show his loyalty to Jehovah. {3T 280.2}

What astonishing deception and fearful blindness had, like a dark cloud, covered Israel! This blindness and apostasy had not closed about them suddenly; it had come upon them gradually as they had not heeded the word of reproof and warning which the Lord had sent to them because of their pride and their sins. And now, in this fearful crisis, in the presence of the idolatrous priests and the apostate king, they remained neutral. If God abhors one sin above another, of which His people are guilty, it is doing nothing in case of an emergency. Indifference and neutrality in a religious crisis is regarded of God as a grievous crime and equal to the very worst type of hostility against God. {3T 280.3}

Principle of corporate Guilt: explained

I saw that many souls will sink in darkness because of their covetousness. The plain, straight testimony must live in the church, or the curse of God will rest upon His people as surely as it did upon ancient Israel because of their sins. God holds His people, as a body, responsible for the sins existing in individuals among them. If the leaders of the church neglect to diligently search out the sins which bring the displeasure of God upon the body, they become responsible for these sins. …{3T 269.2}

Attacks on Fundamental Beliefs exposed

Satan is now doing, through individuals like Thomas Paine, what he has been trying to do since his fall. He is, through his power and lying wonders, tearing away the foundation of the Christian’s hope and putting out the sun that is to light the narrow way to heaven. He is making the world believe that the Bible is uninspired, no better than a storybook,.. {EW 265.1}

Attacks on Fundamental Beliefs coming from INSIDE the church

What influence is it would lead men at this stage of our history to work in an underhand, powerful way to tear down the foundation of our faith–the foundation that was laid at the beginning of our work by prayerful study of the Word and by revelation?

Upon this foundation we have been building for the past fifty years. Do you wonder that when I see the beginning of a work that would remove some of the pillars of our faith, I have something to say? I must obey the command, “Meet it!” . . . {1SM 207.3}

I must bear the messages of warning that God gives me to bear, and then leave with the Lord the results. I must now present the matter in all its bearings; for the people of God must not be despoiled. {1SM 208.1}

We are God’s commandment-keeping people. For the past fifty years every phase of heresy has been brought to bear upon us, to becloud our minds regarding the teaching of the Word–especially concerning the ministration of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, and the message of Heaven for these last days, as given by the angels of the fourteenth chapter of Revelation. Messages of every order and kind have been urged upon Seventh-day Adventists, to take the place of the truth which, point by point, has been sought out by prayerful study, and testified to by the miracle-working power of the Lord. But the waymarks which have made us what we are, are to be preserved, and they will be preserved, as God has signified through His Word and the testimony of His Spirit. He calls upon us to hold firmly, with the grip of faith, to the fundamental principles that are based upon unquestionable authority.
{1SM 208.2}

That is the work that was belatedly done at Walla Walla.

That is the work that will be necessary at LSU.

When Moses came down from Sinai and saw rebellion in the camp – the first question he asked was “who is on the Lord’s side”.

But what is fascinating is that the Levites were told to go to their relatives and close neighbors — they were not instructed to go to tribes at the far end of the camp from where they lived. Thus it was a very hard thing for them to do for it cost them personally. How much better it would have been had the priests – including Aaron – stood up to the rebellion early on and spared everyone all that pain.

in Christ,

Bob

Like or Dislike: 3  2

@David Kendall, BMus, MA:

One of the issues that saddens me when I read many of the posts on this forum is the questioning of motives, questioning of Adventist or even Christian credentials, and putting words into the mouths (or thoughts into the minds) of many committed, mission-minded faculty members that I know and respect and who have made positive, spiritual impacts in my own life (that is my “wild claim”). I am further saddened when such reports are often received at second hand, which is why I have made it a point to attempt to correct factual errors from time to time.

Suppose (for example) that the reports of Bradly saying that the Bible is wrong and the atheist-centric doctrines on origins found in evolutionism are the trustworthy version of origins — are all just fabricated fiction, suppose he never actually did that.

Suppose that all the reports confirmed here by Erv Taylor and others and by the course work documented here – that LSU actually teaches evolution as the “Right answer” are all just second hand fabrications – no truth at all to them.

Suppose all the first hand testimony from both parents and students that has been posted here about their being brushed aside when they were shocked to discover an “all-for-evolutionism” agenda at LSU — is all just “second hand fiction”.

The WHERE is the evidence? Given that we have had LSU members posting here from time to time. Why have they not brought to light their stellar creationist, 28 FB affirming Biology program evidence. Certainly THEY should have been “aware” of it.

Thus the – “there is no truth to the complaints” style argument never really gets off the ground.

At best you get “it is not nice to complain about evolution being in conflict with the Bible and the 28FB”. OR maybe even “when you complain about evoutionism some here do not always put the best possible face on it”.

If that latter form is the point you are making, then let me ask you this.

What “face” do you see being put on the subject here? Is it “consistent” with the way it is presented by those posting on this web site?

Ellen White — 3SG 90-91
Chapter IX. – Disguised Infidelity

I was then carried back to the creation and was shown that the first week, in which God performed the work of creation in six days and rested on the seventh day, was just like every other week. The great God in his days of creation and day of rest, measured off the first cycle as a sample for successive weeks till the close of time. “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created.” God gives us the productions of his work at the close of each literal day. Each day was accounted of him a generation, because every day he generated or produced some new portion of his work. On the seventh day of the first week God rested from his work, and then blessed the day of his rest, and set it apart for the use of man. The weekly cycle of seven literal days, six for labor, and the seventh for rest, which has been preserved and brought down through Bible history, originated in the great facts of the first seven days. {3SG 90.1}

When God spake his law with an audible voice from Sinai, he introduced the Sabbath by saying, “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.” He then declares definitely what shall be done on the six days, and what shall not be done on the seventh. He then, in giving the reason for thus observing the week, points them back to his example on the first seven days of time. “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day, wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.” This reason appears beautiful and forcible when we understand the record of creation to mean literal days. The first six days of each week are given to man in which to labor, because God employed the same period of the first week in the work of creation. The seventh day God has reserved as a day of rest, in commemoration of his rest during the same period of time after he had performed the work of creation in six days. {3SG 90.2}

But the infidel supposition, that the events of the first week required seven vast, indefinite periods for their accomplishment, strikes directly at the foundation of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. It makes indefinite and obscure that which God has made very plain. It is the worst kind of infidelity; for with many who profess to believe the record of creation, it is infidelity in disguise. It charges God with commanding men to observe the week of seven literal days in commemoration of seven indefinite periods, which is unlike his dealings with mortals, and is an impeachment of his wisdom. {3SG 91.1}

Infidel geologists claim that the world is very much older than the Bible record makes it. They reject the Bible record, because of those things which are to them evidences from the earth itself, that the world has existed tens of thousands of years. And many who profess to believe the Bible record are at a loss to account for wonderful things which are found in the earth, with the view that creation week was only seven literal days, and that the world is now only about six thousand years old. These, to free themselves of difficulties thrown in their way by infidel geologists, adopt the view that the six days of creation were six vast, indefinite periods, and the day of God’s rest was another indefinite period; making senseless the fourth commandment of God’s holy law. Some eagerly receive this position, for it destroys the force of the fourth commandment, and they feel a freedom from its claims upon them. …{3SG 91.2}

Shall we leave that comparison as an exercise for the reader?

Or are you saying that in fact the 3SG example does reflect the views of many posting here – and it is that view of evolutionism that you are objecting to?

in Christ,

Bob

Like or Dislike: 2  2

David, I do sympathize with your position. You sound like an honest, god-fearing teacher at LSU. I am sure there are others. How many, I do not know, but I am sure there are others. Is it possible for the honest faculty to petition the administration for a strict abherence to denominational standards by all teachers and removal of those who wander off into, I will use the term “offshoot” teachings? A few can and are jepordizing the security of those like yourself. This site is being shared with many SDAs. They know what is going on. It is sure to have an impact on enrollment eventually.

Hi Pastor,

Sorry for the long delay in answering. PhD dissertations do tend to obscure other considerations, especially when they are coming due!

My previous post does, I believe, address your question as to the numbers of honest, God-fearing faculty at LSU; that is, all of them that I know. One of the issues that saddens me when I read many of the posts on this forum is the questioning of motives, questioning of Adventist or even Christian credentials, and putting words into the mouths (or thoughts into the minds) of many committed, mission-minded faculty members that I know and respect and who have made positive, spiritual impacts in my own life (that is my “wild claim”). I am further saddened when such reports are often received at second hand, which is why I have made it a point to attempt to correct factual errors from time to time.

Regarding a petition to strict adherence to denominational principles (I am assuming you are referring to the 28), I tend to think that very few faculty members (though I speak only for myself) would support litmus or purity tests of that sort, due to a few reasons. One, we have (in Adventism) generally avoided prescriptive creedal statements, largely due to the negative connotations such statements have had (to us) in and from other Christian faith traditions. Two, how would we enforce such a set of standards (and what would be the proof)? And who would be tasked to enforce it? I would not even trust myself in such an position.

Regarding job security, I did not begin teaching at LSU seven years ago for the security (and certainly not for the money!). I teach at La Sierra because I believe in the institution and the positive impacts it has on the lives (spiritual, social, professional, musical) of the students that spend four or five years in the care of our dedicated faculty, staff and administrators. That is the knowledge I have at first hand, and if any of these faculty are purged from the institution and the church (as happened at Southern, PUC and Walla Walla in recent times), it will be Adventism’s deep, deep loss.

Pax,

David Kendall
Adjunct Professor of Music
La Sierra University

Like or Dislike: 3  1