Hi Alvin, I’ll try to address your questions myself if …

Comment on Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’ by Sean Pitman.

Hi Alvin,

I’ll try to address your questions myself if you don’t mind a line-by-line response:

1. How would scorpions, spiders, sharks, leeches, woodticks, and internal parasites fit in a perfect Garden of Eden?

The Bible hints at an answer by explaining that lions will one day “eat straw like an ox” – Isaiah 65:25. The Bible also suggests the creative activity on this planet, after the Fall, of intelligent enemies of God. “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.” – Matthew 13:27

In short, the way certain creatures are now are not the way they were originally created or intended to be. There have been degenerative changes (devolution) over time that have resulted in creation of parasites which were not originally parasitic. A modern day example of this is the evolution of toxic bacteria that are dependent upon a toxin injector called the “Type III secretory system” or “TTSS”. As it turns out, this toxin injector, which helps these toxic bacteria in their parasitism, is nothing more than a degenerated portion of a flagellar motility system that has lost most of its original parts.

http://www.detectingdesign.com/flagellum.html

The same thing is true of many types of carnivores. Most of the time, the changes needed to turn a plant eater into a carnivores are dependent, not upon novel gains in functionality, but upon a loss of pre-existing functionality and Mendelian variation to enhance certain features – like the size and shape of teeth – etc. The ability to eat and process plant material for energy is actually more informationally complex than is the ability be carnivorous.

Anyway, I go into a few more details on this question in a video presentation recorded here:

http://www.detectingdesign.com/videoclips.html#Carnivores

2. Were the venomous fangs of snakes likely a sudden development after sin, would they have had a place in the Garden of Eden, or did the devil likely create this feature in serpents gradually?

I also discuss the origin of venom and fangs in the above listed video on carnivores…

3. If we accept the concept that all felines from bobcats to tigers descended from one pair on Noah’s Ark (as some apologists do, to fit everything in), do we have any evidence of intermediate forms between these kinds, especially challenging, in my opinion, in the case of cheetahs? And what about the requisite speed of microevolution in this scenario?

What most people, to include most mainstream scientists, don’t seem to understand is the very significant potential for phenotypic diversity that is contained within the gene pools of most living things. For example, essentially all the modern breeds of dogs, from the chihuahua to the Grate Dane were isolated within the last 400 years or so. This phenotypic potential was contained within the original wolf-type gene pool. My brother and I, from the very same parents, looks quite different. My brother is dark skinned and has a lot of hair all over his body (like a little fuzz ball), while I’m light skinned and have very little hair on my body. These differences in phenotype are largely the result of Mendelian variation potential starting from the same original gene pool of phenotypic options. There is nothing qualitatively new in these phenotypic variations that was not already present in the ancestral gene pool.

The same thing is true for cats. A good clue that cats are really part of the same functional gene pool is that most types of cats can interbreed to produce viable offspring – even between different species and even different genera (i.e., puma x leopard = pumapard).

In short, the rapid diversity of cats and dogs and all other basic “kinds” of gene pools is not a problem given the pre-existence of the front-loaded information needed for such phenotypic diversity within the ancestral gene pools of these different kinds of animals…

4. Ellen White asserts that God did not initially create “loathsome swamps” or “barren deserts.” In that case, when were the species formed that inhabit these habitats?

They were formed in the beginning along with everything else during creation week. They simply adapted to new environments as these new environments arose. Again, the potential for dramatic phenotypic differences is pre-programmed into the gene pools of many living things.

5. Do we have a good hypothesis for the survival during the Flood of semi-aquatic creatures (such as crabs) and creatures that need to live in shallow water (such as crayfish)? Did Noah have a sophisticated aquarium aboard the Ark?

I see no compelling reason why these creatures could not have survived outside of the Ark. I’ve personally seen crabs and crayfish surviving just fine in pretty deep water – over 70 feet. Also, many types of crabs thrive in even deeper water. Note that deep water crab fishing in the Alaskan waters is a lucrative business.

6. Do we have good answers for the logistical issues (food, water, waste disposal, etc.) raised by those who challenge the Genesis Flood?

In his interesting book, Noah’s Ark: A Feasibility Study, John Woodmorappe suggests that far fewer animals than most people realize would have been transported upon the ark. By pointing out that the word “specie” is not equivalent to the “created kinds” of the Genesis account (as already described above), Woodmorappe credibly demonstrates that as few as 2,000 animals may have been required on the ark. To pad this number for error, he continues his study by showing that the ark could easily accommodate 16,000 animals.) That leaves well over two thirds of the Ark’s ~500,000 cubic meters of space for food, water, and living space for Noah and his family. There was probably also a waste disposal system to remove waste from inside to outside the Ark. There is also the possibility that the animals may have gone into a type of dormancy. Many groups of animals have at least a latent ability to hibernate or aestivate. With their bodily functions reduced to a minimum, the burden of their care would have been greatly lightened.

7. If kangaroos lived temporarily in the land area between Ararat and Australia, and possibly worldwide before the Flood, why do we only find their fossils in or near Australia?

Fossils of large mammals are very rare to begin with. All the primate fossils known could fit comfortably on the floor in your living room. Also, the known fossils of Kangaroos are all found in post-Flood deposits in Australia. It is possible that very few Kangaroos were able to survive for long elsewhere for any number of reasons and avoided fossilization due to the rarity of fossilization itself combined with their reduced numbers outside of Australia for the relatively short time that they existed outside of Australia before dying off.

8. How did sloths travel all the way to the Americas from Ararat?

Right after the Flood, there is evidence that S. America, Africa, and India were likely connected. During the ice age that followed the Flood 500 or so years later, the ocean level would have decreased dramatically; opening up land bridges between continents.

As far as the slow moving sloths that we know today, giants sloths weighing over two tons also existed after the Flood for while which could move around much faster than today’s much smaller cousins. Beyond this, the Earth isn’t that big of a place (~24,000 miles in circumference). It doesn’t take very long even for seemingly slow moving creatures to get from one side to the other. Just moving 12 miles per year, it would only take 1,000 years to migrate to the other side of the planet. Even a small slow tree sloth can easily migrate that fast…

9. How were the spawning grounds for salmon established as the Ice Age glaciers retreated, given that these fish faithfully return to their birthplace? Same question for birds that return to the same place every year.

Good question. Let me know when you find out 😉

10. What about the establishment of different types of trees in different parts of the world after the Flood?

Probably affected by climate conditions as to which ones thrived and which ones did not. Seeds can also travel surprising distances quite quickly…

Hope this helps…

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com

Sean Pitman Also Commented

Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@Phil Mills:

One of these frequent posters claims to be a Young Earth Creationists, but believes in creation based on what he refers to as “faith.” One could get the idea that he fears that anything scientifically shown to support creation is actually bad since it would then somehow require less faith to believe. His faith, however, is more akin to the Catholic student who is reported to have said, “Faith is what you believe that you know ain’t so.”

This is not Biblical faith. Neither is it the faith of the Adventist pioneers. It certainly doesn’t build faith, it actually destroys genuine faith. This pseudofaith more closely resembles a mere superstitious belief. It is no surprise that agnostics, evolutionists, and other doubters have such an affinity for those who possess this kind of “faith” on this site. Why wouldn’t they agree with it. It doesn’t threaten them in any way. It bolsters their ranks. It confirms their unbelief since they already believe faith is unreasonable.

I couldn’t have said it better myself…

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@Professor Kent:

Of course it’s a good thing; I never said it was bad. The problem is when you and Pitman maintain that empirical evidence from nature is essential to validate the Bible–and that is heresy and blasphemy.

You yourself made this “blasphemous” claim when you listed off several empirical evidences, like fulfilled prophecy (based on empirical investigation of real history), as reasons why you believe the Bible to be superior to other books claiming to be the true Word of God.

Here is what you wrote:

In short, there is ample evidence to support the Bible and Christianity, including fulfilled prophecy, the lives and testimony of the apostles, archeology, the impact of the Bible on personal lives, and so forth. All of this is “empirical evidence” that goes beyond what is needed to establish the validity of scripture. The other religions are confronted with serious shortcomings on these issues, in my opinion… – Professor Kent

Now, if the Holy Spirit is enough, as the Latter-day Saints believe, to lead you into all truth without having to use your brain, why did you appeal to these empirical evidences to support your belief or faith in the superior credibility of the Bible vs. other competing options held in higher regard by other faiths? Why didn’t you just appeal to the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking directly to you as evidence enough?

So, the argument here isn’t really over the need for an empirical basis for one’s faith in the Bible before it can be considered rational. You yourself appeal to such. You admit to the need for an empirical argument as the basis for choosing the Bible over other competing options. You’ve made this argument several times now. Therefore, the real argument here is in regard to your notion that the empirical basis, or “weight of empirical evidence” for faith never changes or needs to be re-examined in any way over time – despite the discovery of new evidence and information?

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


Panda’s Thumb: ‘SDAs are split over evolution’
@krissmith777:

You missed my overall point. The first sentence I quoted from it was: The rates at which sediments accumulate vary enormously, owing to the natural variability of the processes that produce and transport sediments. — The rates vary greatly depending on the conditions… Your argument pre-supposes that the rate has not changed, and you have not demonstrated that it has. — And frankly, it doesn’t have to be.

You misunderstand the “rate” that the author is talking about here. This rate is not the overall rate of ocean sedimentation which is in fact fairly constant at ~30 billion tons per year. I’ve already tried to explain this to you, but the variability your reference is talking about is the local variability that is indeed due to many factors of sediment transport within the oceans themselves. This local variability does not affect the overall sediment load that is consistently delivered to the oceans.

— David E. Thomas says it much better than I ever could:

…much sediment never gets to the ocean floor, but is trapped instead on continental slopes and shelves, or in huge river deltas. Over the years, some of these continental slopes can accumulate several kilometers of sediment, while others can even become part of mountain ranges in continental plate-to-plate collisions. Neither erosion nor subduction are expected to be constant processes over millions of years, and they are simply not good clocks.

Indeed, and my calculations take into account all the sediment currently in the oceans, to include the sediment on continental slopes and shelves and river deltas. The total amount of sediment, taking all of these factors into account, is only 10^17 tons. That tonnage can be explained in just 15 million years. That’s a huge problem for mainstream theories of plate tectonics and the proposed age of ocean basins. Your arguments about the variability of sedimentation for different parts of the ocean floor are completely irrelevant to explaining the total tonnage that is currently in the oceans regardless of its location.

I heard one geologist call it a “crude” dating method. Looks more related to “relative dating,” not “absolute dating.”

Again, you’re looking at local rates of accumulation over time, not the overall rate of accumulation over time. You’re confusing two separate concepts here. They aren’t the same thing.

Again, that is completely irrelevant to the point that the total amount of sediment, the total tonnage that is current in the oceans, irrespective of its location within the ocean basins, can be explained given just 15 million years… – Sean Pitman

And the paper I linked a while ago using the current rate gave the figure of 100 million years: (“At a rate of 0.5 cm (.2 in)/1000 years, it takes only 100 million years to accumulate 500 m (1600 ft) of sediment,”)

Indeed – the local rate of sediment accumulation on some areas of the ocean floor may indeed be this slow. Again, however, this is completely irrelevant to the fact that the total sediment contained by all the oceans in the whole world, to include the sediment that is on or close to the continent shelves, is far far too low for them to be nearly as old as mainstream scientists propose…

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


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