@David Read: You wrote: Sean, it is easy to argue that …

Comment on My Goal for La Sierra University by Sean Pitman.

@David Read:

You wrote:

Sean, it is easy to argue that Intelligent Design theory applied to origins is science, because other branches of science incorporate detection of design.

Exactly…

[However], the Biblical model of origins, which is also the church’s model of origins, goes way beyond mere intelligent design. Accordingly, it isn’t prudent to get boxed into defending only Intelligent Design theory when our actual model of origins encompasses far more specific supernatural intervention, by a very specific deity–the God of the Bible.

If you can get someone to admit that intelligent design theories are a basic part of many real mainstream sciences, and they are, you’ve gotten them to take a big step toward being able to understand the rational basis for the SDA position on origins. You can’t even try to identify the designer if you can’t figure out that intelligent design is required in the first place…

Phil is right about the centrality of naturalism to mainstream origins science.

I don’t think that either you or Phil, or anyone else for that matter, are able to really define what you mean when you use the terms “natural” or “supernatural”. These terms seem to be relative terms as most people use them. Because of this, I don’t think that you or anyone else really knows if it is possible or impossible for many if not all of the miracles, described in the Bible, to be performed using “natural” mechanisms – given the appropriate technology.

You see, miracles may only seem miraculous from the perspective of those who don’t know how to produce the same effect themselves.

Beyond this, when scientists use the term “naturalism” they often are referring to what seems like mindless mechanisms of nature – that ultimately no intelligence of any kind is needed to explain any aspect of the universe in which we live.

It is for this reason that many scientists, like Dawkins, Hawking, and the like, believe that ultimately everything came from nothing and that everything is the result of the mindless laws of nature. In short, such scientists have made a God, of sorts, out of the mindless uncaring laws of nature. The simply worship a mindless uncaring God instead of an intelligent loving God. Yet, they invoke a God-like creative power none-the-less.

In this sense, this form of naturalism is indeed a religious or philosophical position that is quite different from the conclusion of creationists and even IDists.

I don’t see any alternative to full-blown creationism and creation science.

Neither do I, but I also don’t see the need to define creation science using anything other than standard definitions of science.

If one is not willing to directly name the designer in science classes in our schools as an initial teaching tactic, that’s fine, as long as our professors are willing to admit to their students, right up front, that a very high level of intelligence is needed to explain the origin of many features of living things on this planet and that the model of origins presented in the Bible is not inconsistent with the best available empirical evidence – especially when it comes to explaining the rapidly degenerating nature of the genomic quality of slowly reproducing living things on this planet as well as the catastrophic features of much of the fossil and geologic records… etc. At this point, of course, I think our professors are not out of bounds to suggest that the design that is evident in nature is not inconsistent with the Christian God described in the Bible.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com

Sean Pitman Also Commented

My Goal for La Sierra University
@Professor Kent:

Intelligent Design – framed in terms of possibility, not the actual origin of life on earth
– Null hypothesis: living, reproducing organisms cannot be created by an intelligent designer.
– Alternative hypothesis: living, reproducing organisms can be created by an intelligent designer.
– Falsifying the null hypothesis: humans succeed in creating living, self-replicating entities (cells or something similar) under specific conditions (this would mean that God is not alone in the capacity to create).
– Falsifying the alternative hypothesis: in essence, cannot be done since an infinite combination of conditions would need to be tested to show impossibility.
– My conclusions: Experimental tests to identify the conditions under which self-replicating entities can form are well underway, but have not yielded confirmatory evidence. This activity clearly comprises science, but it cannot be distinguished from falsifying the null hypothesis for abiogenesis (below). More important, abiogenesis simply cannot be falsified, as stated above. Furthermore, failure or success in this endeavor still cannot confirm the cause (Intelligent Design vs abiogenesis) for the appearance of the first form of life on earth, nor would it inform us that the Intelligent Designer is the God of Genesis 1. Thus, Intelligent Design as an explanation for the creation of life on earth cannot be validated by science, and can be believed only on the basis of faith–something I personally am willing to accept.

It is quite clear that God is not the only one who can create functionally complex machines, to include biomachines. Humans have in fact created the first functional fully synthetic genome, from scratch, that actually works.


Daniel Gibson and his colleagues at the J. Craig Venter Institute in Rockville, Maryland, synthesized the genome of the bacterium Mycoplasma mycoides, consisting of about 1.1 million base pairs. Having assembled the genome inside a yeast cell, they transplanted it into a cell from a closely related species, Mycoplasma capricolum. After the newly made cell had divided, the cells of the bacterial colony that it formed contained only proteins characteristic of M. mycoides.

The success clears the way for developing and testing new variants of existing organisms.

“With this approach we now have the ability to start with a DNA sequence and design organisms exactly like we want,” says Gibson. “We can get down to the very nucleotide level and make any changes we want to a genome.”

http://www.astrobio.net/pressrelease/3502/synthetic-genome

So you see, among known natural processes, only those with access to intelligence can come remotely close to producing the functional informational complexity that we see in every living thing. No other non-deliberate force of nature, that is currently known to science, comes remotely close (see further discussion of this particular point below).

This is the very same argument used to detect design behind highly symmetrical polished granite cubes, Stonehenge, the SETI radio signals, and the like. There is no fundamental scientific difference. It is the very same argument based on the very same logic.

Evolutionary Theory – I assume Sean refers to abiogenesis, framed in terms of possibility, not the actual origin of life on earth

All scientific theories are framed as possibilities since science isn’t about determining absolutes. If one could ever absolutely falsify or verify anything, science would no longer be needed at that point. Science is only useful when there is less than perfect knowledge…

– Null hypothesis: living, reproducing organisms cannot arise spontaneously through natural processes.
– Alternative hypothesis: living, reproducing organisms can arise spontaneously through natural processes.
– Falsifying the null hypothesis: experiments succeed in creating living, self-replicating entities (cells or something similar) under specific conditions.
– Falsifying the alternative hypothesis: in essence, cannot be done since an infinite combination of conditions would need to be tested to show impossibility.
– My conclusions: Experimental tests to identify the conditions under which self-replicating entities can form are well underway, but have not yielded confirmatory evidence. This activity clearly comprises science, but it cannot be distinguished from falsifying the null hypothesis for intelligent design (above). More important, abiogenesis simply cannot be falsified. Furthermore, failure or success in this endeavor still cannot confirm the cause (Intelligent Design vs abiogenesis) for the appearance of the first form of life on earth. Thus, abiogenesis as an explanation for the creation of life on earth cannot be validated by science, and can be believed only on the basis of faith–something I personally have not been willing to accept.

You misunderstand the concept of falsification.

Consider a situation where one of our Mars rovers comes across a highly symmetrical polished granite cube measuring 1.5 meters on each side. In the center of each of the six faces of the cube there are geometric etchings 5.0 cm in diameter carved to a depth of 0.5 cm.

The obvious scientific conclusion of intelligent design for such a situation would be overwhelming. This is true even though all non-deliberate natural processes have not been evaluated or entirely falsified as a potential cause for such an artifact.

You see, if you were able to completely falsify all potential explanations for a given artifact, you wouldn’t need science. Science is based on making conclusions given information that is always very incomplete. Science is based on taking this very limited information and making the best predictions you can make given what is currently known.

When it comes to explaining the origin of such granite cubes and the informational complexity of all living things the scientific conclusion is that no mindless force in nature that is currently known comes remotely close to doing the job while natural agents that have access to at least human level intelligence are able to actually produce such artifacts or to get much much closer to their production.

That, in a nutshell is the scientific argument for ID.

Your comments, Sean, seem to suggest that you believe that Intelligent Design is science and that abiogenesis cannot be (but perhaps I’m not understanding your comments).

Both ID and non-ID hypotheses can be presented in line with scientific methodologies. Neither hypothesis can be absolutely falsified or confirmed since the achievement of absolutes is impossible in science. Science doesn’t deal with absolutes, but only with probabilities that are always less than 100% certain.

So, the real question here is, which hypothesis carries with it the greatest predictive value given what is currently known? – not what might be known in the future?

Given what is currently known, intelligent design comes far far closer to explaining the informational complexity that is seen in living things compared to any known non-intelligent force of nature.

So, the most rational, the most scientific, conclusion, is, for today, that intelligent design is the most rational explaination for the origin of life and much of its diversity.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


My Goal for La Sierra University
@Professor Kent:

Egyptian pyramids
– Hypothesis: made by intelligent design.
– Falsifying the hypothesis: Pyramids are evenly distributed across the landscape rather clustered in the vicinity of human civilizations; no sources of the rock used to construct the pyramids can be located; pyramids do not contain human artifacts, including hieroglyphics that explain some details of the culture and the contents within the pyramids.
– My conclusion: I believe there is sufficient evidence to accept this hypothesis, and that the intelligent designers likely to be humans. I can’t reject whether God himself was the intelligent designer of at least some pyramids, because I can’t figure out how to falsify this possibility (i.e., any quest to confirm that God created the pyramids ain’t scientific).

So you can scientifically detect design after all? even if thousands of years old? Glad to see that you’ve reconsidered your original statement.

However, I must say that I fail to see how an “even distribution” of pyramids across the landscape would tend to “falsify” the ID hypothesis for their origin. I also fail to see how a failure to identify the source of stone used in their construction would tend to falsify the ID hypothesis. Also, before the meaning of hieroglyphic carvings was deciphered, it was quite clear that these hieroglyphs were deliberately carved by intelligent design (even without being able to absolutely falsify the hypothesis of non-deliberate design) and that they most likely had some kind of function/meaning. Beyond this, even without any such hieroglyphs at all, the pyramids themselves would be clearly detectable as being the result of intelligent design and construction… even if only one such pyramid existed and even if it was built without any hieroglyphs or any other evident reason for its construction. Even if such a pyramid were found all by itself on an alien planet like Mars it would still be scientifically detectable as having been the result of ID.

Remember also, this isn’t about detecting the actual identity of the designer. This is only about detecting intelligent design regardless of who the designer may or may not have been.

A highly symmetrical polished granite cube
– Hypothesis: made by intelligent design.
– Falsifying the hypothesis: minerals with perfect or near-perfect geometric shapes can be found in nature, or their formation by natural processes can be observed.
– My conclusion: A visit to any museum that exhibits presumably naturally produced minerals (i.e., those unearthed from mines) should reveal various minerals that adopt a range of perfect or near-perfect geometric shapes, and some can even be produced by mixing solutions together in a lab. Mineral surfaces often appear highly polished. I think the evidence is sufficient that a highly symmetrical polished cube could plausibly result from natural causes apart from human intelligent design.

This isn’t true for granite, which does not form such highly symmetrical geometric structures naturally as do other materials. Why else do you think I specified that the material in the cube was granite?

If you don’t think that the discovery of such a cube, on Mars for example, would cause an international sensation, even among scientists, you’re quite clueless about the natural abilities of granite.

As for your discussion on if the designer was God or not, again, that’s irrelevant to the scientific detection of intelligent design by itself.

Clearly, Sean, you disagree in that you believe such a cube can be produced only by a human. However, your logic seems flawed: just because I see a rocket and conclude it was made by humans does not mean I can conclude that God created the humans that made the rocket.

It is quite clear that such a cube can only be produced, ultimately, by intelligent design – human or otherwise. Your arguments about God being the designer are, yet again, irrelevant to the scientific detection of design for such artifacts.

SETI’s detection of complex, highly patterned radio waves
– Hypothesis: made by intelligent design.
– Falsifying the hypothesis: radio waves similar to those intercepted by SETI’s receivers can be generated naturally.
– My conclusion: SETI hasn’t detected anything, so why are you making a big deal about this?

You can’t go “fishing” unless you know ahead of time how to recognize when you’ve actually caught a fish.

The basis of SETI is important in this regard because there would be no point in even looking at radio signals if it was theoretically impossible to scientifically detect intelligent design behind certain patterns or other features of radio signals.

It is for the very reason that the detection of certain features in radio signals would be so clearly artefactual, the result of intelligent design, that SETI is a real science – regardless of if it is ever successful or not. The potential for success is there because of the basic science of ID – a science which you still don’t seem to really understand.

You keep confusing the search for ID with the search for God. They aren’t the same thing. The search for ID is distinctly different from the search for God. It is for this reason why the basic science behind ID does in fact follow true scientific methodologies.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


My Goal for La Sierra University
@Phillip Brantley:

David, the “wedge strategy” has relevance in the current discussion because it establishes that even the founders of Intelligent Design understood that Intelligent Design does not constitute science but is instead a religious and philosophical idea. Indeed, the origins of the Intelligent Design movement demonstrate that this movement is a continuation of the “creation science” movement under a different label.

No one is arguing that there aren’t philosophical or even religious motivations for some who hold to various forms of intelligent design theories. Such beliefs and motivations are irrelevant, however, when it comes to the basic science of intelligent design.

As already noted, intelligent design theories can be and are based, all the time, on real scientific methodologies that are employed by many mainstream scientists in many mainstream scientific disciplines – like anthropology, forensics, and even SETI.

For Phil (and Jeff Kent) to simply dismiss all forms of intelligent design theories just because of the motivations of some shows his lack of understanding regarding basic scientific methodologies. He doesn’t seem to understand the very definition of science. He argues that I’m the one changing the rules of the game when he joined the game without seeming to understand the rules to begin with.

Perhaps it is for this reason that he seems unwilling to answer very simple questions on science and how scientists are able to detect design behind various relatively simple artifacts. He simply refuses to substantively address such questions because he simply doesn’t know the mainstream scientific basis behind the detection of intelligent design.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


Recent Comments by Sean Pitman

Conrad Vine Continues to Attack Church Leadership
I think that there can be a reasonable combination of the best of modern medicine as well as the best of healthful living and natural remedies such as exercise, sunlight, vitamin D, “forest bathing”, good sleep, vegan or at least a vegetarian diet, etc…


Conrad Vine Continues to Attack Church Leadership
You opted not to get vaccinated during the pandemic, for whatever reason, but did not advise others to do the same. That’s fine. I think you probably increased your own risk a bit, but that’s far better than giving medical advice to others when you don’t know for sure that you’re right – especially for those who were at higher risk than you. It’s also good that you supported others who did choose to get vaccinated.

As far as SDA hospitals and organizations, I agree that there has been some drift from the ideal. I’m not happy that so many non-SDAs are hired to work in and to be leaders. I’m also disappointed that there isn’t a lot more emphasis, direction, and teaching with regard to healthful living. There are some who are doing this, like Dr. Roger Seheult. However, there does seem to be a lack of an organized or official emphasis on how to living healthful so as to avoid having to use so many medications for chronic conditions that are largely self-inflicted. Now, I do sympathize that quick fixed and pills are what most patients want. Most doesn’t want to give up their back health habits, so doctors often just give up and give their patients what they want. Still, this does not excuse the lack of effort along these lines in our hospitals and medical schools. Also, more should be done to spread the Gospel Message in our hospitals as well…


Conrad Vine Continues to Attack Church Leadership
Thank you for your kind words and support. I really appreciate it very much!


Conrad Vine Continues to Attack Church Leadership
I’m fine with open dialogue, but that includes presenting and at least understanding things from the GC’s perspective and why the significant majority of SDAs and GC delegates believe that the GC did the right thing during the pandemic and with the original 2015 statement on vaccines.


Conrad Vine Continues to Attack Church Leadership
So, it’s impossible to be a doctor who promotes the best of modern medicine as well as the best natural remedies and still be a follower of Jesus? Really? Not even Ellen White could be saved then…