Roy said….. “”Don’t Judge” is usually shrieked by those who have …

Comment on LSU student: ‘Apostates or Apostles’? by Bill Sorensen.

Roy said…..

“”Don’t Judge” is usually shrieked by those who have a form of Godliness while denying the power.”

This is typical of the liberal agenda in the church today. The idea of “don’t judge” has be warped from its true biblical perspective. It simply means, don’t judge someone’s final salvation as such a judgment comes at the end of the world.

It does not mean we can not judge the present condition and spirituality of an individual based on present evidence. But if we can’t “judge” in this context, we must necessarily tolerate every form of sin and evil in the church. The liberal agenda has made tremendous inroads into modern Adventism and total confusion about the bible has been advocated on many issues, such as creation vs. evolution.

Every idea and concept must be studied in its biblical context. This doesn’t seem to be the norm for drawing various conclusions about the meaning of any phrase or word.

Bill Sorensen

Bill Sorensen Also Commented

LSU student: ‘Apostates or Apostles’?
Professor Kent said…..

“Bill, I respect what you have to say. I can’t tell whether you are unhappy with my defense of the SDA hermeneutic, but what could possibly be more fundamental to the Church than the approach we use to interpret and understand Scripture? Do we really want to undermine that?”

I believe your defense is reasonably accurate. I don’t agree with Sean. I think his point is this, “God does not bypass our reasoning powers to understand truth.” But I think he goes beyond this simple assumption and tries to use science and other “evidence” as some sort of “proof” of what the bible teaches.

We agree that science does not contradict scripture. None the less, science is totally inadequate as “proof” of what the bible teaches. Miracles are beyond human explanation. Did Jesus heal the blind man in John 9? Yes. And there was clear “proof” the man was healed.

How did Jesus heal the blind man? We don’t know. It was a “miracle” beyond human comprehension. And this is the same with creation. We know that creation exists and we have “proof” of this by experience and reason. None the less, we don’t know how God can create “by the word of His mouth.”

Obviously, we don’t know, and we don’t need to know how God can do this. But it is equally obvious that we must accept it as reality simply because the bible says so.

“Proof” of the bible and its authority is prophecy. It is self validating in this regard. Thus we use Daniel and Revelation to not only affirm the validity of the bible itself, but to affirm basic SDA truths concerning the second coming and other eschatological events.

In the end, about creation, we have no idea how old anything was when God created it. Can God create a rock a million years old? of course He can.
We do know that many things created were already mature in some degree. Adam was not a new born baby. Neither was Eve. How old were they chronologically? One day. How old were they in maturity? We don’t know.

The same with trees and other animals and plants. So it is a useless argument to “prove” anything time wise by science. We do know there were six literal days (evenings and morning) and the seventh day Sabbath that makes up a literal week. And this is all we need to know about that because the bible does not give us futher information.

Some speculation is not wrong to do. But when it challenges and/or denies the biblical account, it must be rejected by any bible believing Christian.
And neither is the bible obscure on this issue. This is the devil’s play ground. He wants to obscure the obvious and then say, “Are you sure you know and understand what this is saying?”

So I don’t agree with Sean. And a few other things he believes as well.

But I read most of the dialogue on this forum. I wonder if Goldstein is aware of this forum? I never see him here. I guess I can ask him…..

Bill Sorensen


LSU student: ‘Apostates or Apostles’?
Professor Kent said……

“By the way, I have no problem with whatever belief Dr. Pitman subscribes. I am doubtful he will concede any form of error. However, when he declares others to be undermining official SDA beliefs, he ought to take a more careful look at his own position. I think it’s unfortunate that so many have been led astray by his vigorous arguments.”

While it is commendable to carefully affirm what we believe in a biblical context, there is nothing more devastating and counter-productive in a discussion than incessant bickering on any given subject.

The bible speaks for itself, and in many ways, needs no comment. It is self affirming and more than adequately clear in its affirmations of what it means, affirms and/or condemns.

Often times, we “over-explain” the bible to the point that people may well wonder if we really believe it ourselves and if we are really convinced of what we affirm. Sure, people will ask legitimate questions that need some answers and so some discussion is healthy. But in many, if not most cases, ongoing dialogue is not really productive.

We can readily see that Eve “over-dialogued” with Satan and lost the argument. She “over-explained” the obvious and Satan continually challenged her understanding on the issues. We can hear his questions….

“Are you sure you have understood what God really meant?”

“Maybe you did not clearly understand what He has said.”

“In fact, this is what the real truth of the matter is.”

So, this creation/evolution discussion is following the same format. And it applies to every clear bible teaching including the SDA view of 1844 and the pre-advent judgment. The state of the dead. And the second coming scenarios.

I have a bible study every Sabbath afternoon at the county jail. There is usually 15 to 30 people that attend. Many see the bible teaching clearly and of course, there are always some questions. I don’t EGW to affirm our 1844 time prophecy.

We must conclude in the end, that either God will affirm by the Holy Spirit the clear truths of His word, or, the world is doomed to continual on going confusion with no hope of any consistent conclusions.

The devil has done a marvelous job of obscuring the bible in a variety of ways. He well knows he must discredit scripture by way of Babylon confusion before he can “deceive the whole world”.

The liberals in the church have been his “helping hands” and often serve his purposes without really knowing what they are doing or the final outcome. For the most part, people generally want to be right. But the conlusion is often more akin to hopeing they are right than a real careful biblical conclusion.

If we take the position, “the bible speaks for itself” we can limit “bickering” to a minimum and quit “over-explaining” what we believe to the point that our own faith is undermined by the continual unbelief of those who attack the bible.

As some of you know, they run me off all the liberal forums simply because I expose their duplicity and accuse them of being non-supportive of the SDA biblical message. I occasionally read some the dialogue, but really have little interest in their discussions. It’s always the same people with the same lame arguments and positions. That’s my opinion, anyway.

Bill Sorensen


LSU student: ‘Apostates or Apostles’?
Adventist World had a full page ad on the back in support of LSU. There are no “actions” to back up the many words condemning evolution being taught at this institution.

Bill Sorensen


Recent Comments by Bill Sorensen

Revisiting God, Sky & Land by Fritz Guy and Brian Bull
@Sean Pitman:

Since the fall of Adam, Sean, all babies are born in sin and they are sinners. God created them. Even if it was by way of cooperation of natural law as human beings also participated in the creation process.

Paul says, “Sold in in.” and “Children of wrath just like everyone else.”

You may not like this biblical reality, but it is true none the less.

And yes, God has also provided a way of escape so that all who He has created “in sin” can be “born again” spiritually and escape their heritage of sin and shame.

I know a lot of people don’t like this idea, but it is true anyway. We are born lost with the potential to be saved if we accept Jesus and His atonement that is provisional for “whosoever will may come.”

Cain didn’t like it either and resisted the exhortation of his brother, Abel, to offer a sin offering because he was a sinner. Cain says, “No, I’ll bring a thank offering, but no sin offering. Sin is not my fault. God created me this way.”

Most people will be outside looking in because they agree with Cain but a few will be inside looking out because they agree with Abel.

Bill Sorensen


What does it take to be a true Seventh-day Adventist?
@Sean Pitman:

Well, Sean, I was not as confrontational as Wesley who said, “Those who deny the doctrine of original sin are heathen still.” … [deleted]

[Oh please…

If you want to have a real conversation, great. However, unless you actually respond substantively to the questions and counter arguments posed to you, without your needless pejoratives, I’m not going to continue posting your repetitive comments on this topic in this forum…]
-sdp


What does it take to be a true Seventh-day Adventist?
And the topic at hand is “What does it take to be a real SDA?”

It takes someone who is willing to follow the bible and its teaching in every particular. If you don’t believe this, you are not a “Protestant” SDA.

You then bring up the Trinity. Which is fine. But that is certainly not the only thing that qualifies for the topic of your thread.

So, here is what you stated to me…..”To be morally “guilty” of something, however, requires that one is consciously aware of what is right, but deliberately chooses to do what is wrong instead (James 4:17). Without the interplay of free will, there is no moral “guilt”.”

So a person is “born” selfish, proud, coveteous, vain….etc, but not “guilty” of being, selfish, proud, coveteous, vain….etc. Your limited view of “guilt” is not biblical. Half a truth is equal to a lie. There is certainly conscience guilt. But guilt is more than awareness of right and wrong. “Sin is transgression of the law”, and the law doesn’t care what you know, or don’t know. If you break the law, you are guilty of breaking the law.

Just admit the truth, Sean. But don’t accuse me of going outside the intent of this thread when it was not specifically stated as a thread about the Trinity.

Just “man up” once in a while and admit you are wrong. We are all born guilty in the eyes of God. And our ignorance does not free us from this fact.

Bill Sorensen


Science and Methodological Naturalism
Well, Sean, this article is about Dr. Taylor and his argument to negate the bible. Maybe you and Goldstein can persuade him with your arguments.

The evidences of nature function as a “law that is a schoolmaster” to lead us to the bible. “The heavens declare the glory of God…….” but still does not tell us who God is nor the function of His government concerning the moral law.

In fact, natural law is so convoluted by sin that “survival of the fittest” is the only logical conclusion.

At any rate, I wish you well in your endeavors to support the creation account in scripture.
Take care.


What does it take to be a true Seventh-day Adventist?
@Sean Pitman:

I read Kevin Paulson’s article and he “double talks” around the obvious to deny and/or ignore the reality of what the bible teaches and EGW confirms.

Babies are born guilty of sin because they are born with the spirit of sin. They have no power to do anything but sin unless and until by the special grace of God, they are given the ability to “choose”.

If you add God’s grace to the bible definition of original sin, you can make man free to act all you want. Original sin has to do with the fall of Adam and the results. It is not about God’s grace that has been added by way of the cross. So EGW has stated clearly in support of the fall and its effects on Adam’s children.

” God declares, “I will put enmity.” This enmity is not naturally entertained. When man transgressed the divine law, his nature became evil, and he was in harmony, and not at variance, with Satan. There exists naturally no enmity between sinful man and the originator of sin. Both became evil through apostasy. The apostate is never at rest, except as he obtains sympathy and support by inducing others to follow his example. For this reason, fallen angels and wicked men unite in desperate companionship. Had not God specially interposed, Satan and man would have entered into an alliance against Heaven; and instead of cherishing enmity against Satan, the whole human family would have been united in opposition to God.” {GC88 505.2}

Those who deny original sin and its effects on the children of Adam always appeal to the atonement and the grace of God. But we see that God “put” enmity between Satan and the human family.

As Luther said to Erasmus in their discussion on this matter when Erasmus claimed the will was free by way of grace,
“Once you add grace you can make the will as free as you like.”

Original sin is not about grace nor what man can do once grace is implied and involved. Original sin is about what man is after the fall apart from grace and/or God’s special action super-imposed in the situation. So, if there is no original sin, neither is there any need for grace.

Kevin Paulson convolutes the issue just like other SDA scholars by making no distinction between how man is after the fall with or without grace.

So, in light of original sin, David says, “The wicked are estranged from the womb, they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.” Ps. 58

David knows apart from God’s grace, no one can do anything but sin. Original sin highlights the necessity and value of the atonement and what it truly means to be “born again.”

Hear the words of Jesus, “That which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit, ye must be born again.”

Original sin is exactly why Jesus made this comment. No one can read and understand the bible who denies the reality of original sin and its effects on all the children of Adam. We are all born guilty of sin, even before we act. So Isaiah says, “Write the vision and make it plain, that wayfareing men, though fools, need not err therein.”

In closing, original sin is not about the atonement nor its meaning and application to humanity. It is about man as he comes from Adam lost and without hope, power, choice or any ability to do anything about his situation.