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It was then that I took a closer look and found that most of the editors (in general) did not have training in theology at all — and since the recent comment about AR and advertising for LSU came up – it was simply a reminder that AR is not staffed to be a theological vetting ground. They follow policy and report the news and they also have good contributing articles.

But beyond that – we should not get too excited about what might be advertised on the back cover – or what recently defrocked pastor may have just gotten a glowing review of AR.

It was not intended as a criticism of some recent action by AR – just an observation over time.

It is not unncommon to find a non-SDA site quoting some offbeat statement from AR and then claiming this is an official view of the Adventist denomination since it was published in an Adventist paper. There again – I sometimes have to remind them that AR does not have the theology-vetting function at the level that those sites have imagined. AR may be doing that on purpose in support of a degree of pluralism.

in Christ,

Bob

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Eugene Shubert:
That’s a very clever way to condemn my opinion. You are imputing to me the empty boasts of the Intelligent Design movement, which is big on claims but has no results. When it comes to theology, science is the grammatical-historical method of interpretation. I have bookfulls of new results that agree with this science. Those are my qualifications. You should have cited those links.  

Surely you are not denying these revelatory credentials I quote from your web site. These would of course be the most preeminent qualifications in any field.

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Clay Peck shares his testimony, ‘My Journey Out of Legalism’ which chronicles his having been raised as an Adventist – only to later make a journey out of Adventism, disavowing its theology. He begins his story by saying some nice things about Adventists – however, the details of the story soon become filled with a profoundly negative and biased view of the Adventist church.
He relates how he was fired as an Adventist pastor in 1997 after being interrogated by professors at Andrews for his lack of orthodoxy. This was also the year a number of ‘Evangelical’ Adventist pastors were likewise fired. It was at this time that Grace Place became ‘interdenominational.’ In 1998 He began to preach things contrary to Adventist Theology(Covenant Theology) and Grace Place separated more formally from the denomination. It was then that many members decided to return to the Adventist church. I would have to say that your news is a little dated Bob. Over 10 years old I’d say.

Mr. Peck says that, “Grace Place was never an official Adventist church. We were called an “experiment.” We were an experimental outreach project to reach out to former and inactive Adventists.” I’m reminded of the Colton SDA church many years ago that was lauded for its phenomenal numerical growth – comprised mostly of disenfranchised or disillusioned Adventists in Southern California.

Now how does all this apply to the discussion here on educate truth?
Often those who are raised in the Adventist church end up trying to effect a radical reformation of its theology or rebel completely against its beliefs in response to a pharisaeical form of Adventism. My contention is that many of those raised in the church are given a warped and unbalanced view of the true principles of Adventism and of God. Our church contains a preponderance of wackos and legalists of the worst sort. These spiritually destructive members are responsible for driving many people away from the Adventist church. Those who have been traumatized by a pharisaeical/legalistic misrepresentation of the everlasting gospel will seek refuge within a fellowship offering an inordinate emphasis on grace, for healing.
On the other side of the coin our movement is a ‘holiness’ movement in the truer sense of the word. The carnal nature rebels against such a biblical emphasis and will gravitate toward an inordinate emphasis on grace for carnal refuge.

Once again, what does this have to do with educate truth? I believe that the backdrop to professing Adventists embracing liberal theology, higher criticism and theistic evolution is an unbalanced response to a destructive form of Adventism. As a result, many Adventists (especially those raised in the church), reach out for a more ‘open-minded,’ ‘compassionate,’ ‘relevant,’ and ‘transparent,’ form of Adventism. In doing so they often become willing to throw the Adventist baby out with the dirty Adventist bath water.

Those of us who would characterize ourselves as ‘conservative and orthodox’ Adventists, should search our hearts as to whether we have ever contributed to this dilemma in spirit, if not in word.

“The strongest argument in favor of the gospel is a loving and lovable Christian.”–TSS 115, 116.

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Victor Marshall:
Eugene, since you are preeminently qualified in things scientific, I will also here post your self-proclaimed qualifications in another very important field: “…my credentials really are unbelievable. By faith and prophetic understanding, I suppose that I have been appointed to bring about the fulfillment of William Miller’s dream… The second half of the dream foretells an experience fulfilled largely by me…” “I believe that I had a revelatory experience somewhat comparable to the Apostle Paul and William Miller… At the end of those 3 incredible weeks I had all of Daniel and Revelation figured out… I was supernaturally driven to study the book of Daniel and was in a constant state of being continually overwhelmed by revelation. At the end of it I was a Bible scholar that had all of Daniel and Revelation figured out.”
“I can not be accused of bias. For those who understand my notes I think it’s obvious that the conclusions I came to were given to me by God… God has given me incredible new light that answers the greatest theological riddles in Adventism:…” – Eugene Shubert ‘The New William Miller’

That’s a very clever way to condemn my opinion. You are imputing to me the empty boasts of the Intelligent Design movement, which is big on claims but has no results. When it comes to theology, science is the grammatical-historical method of interpretation. I have bookfulls of new results that agree with this science. Those are my qualifications. You should have cited those links.

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BobRyan: On the contrary – Intelligent Design is a science that has not only been proven – it has been proven to the point of commercial viability. Consider the case of the “SCAN” function of your radio tuner in your car.

Eugene said:
That’s a bad example Bob. All car radio tuners are built to focus in on signal strength, not intelligence. You are right though, such a radio could be built that could filter out loud noise

Err ummm… that is the “how” they focus on intelligent design .. and you left out signal-to-noise discriminators and pattern matching even to the point of music style scanning. But who’s getting sidetracked on the “how”? My point is that the purpose is to dynamically “discover” the desired set of nearby “radio stations” (vs the undesired set of available screeching sources).

And because those EM waveforms emitted by radio stations are I.D products rather than “the random acts of nature” – The point remains (regardless of the various signal attributes being monitored). It is a science based exercise in discriminating between I.D EM wave forms and background noise for the purpose of presenting only I.D. signals (regardless if the end result is 100% pure or not). The point is that the science exists and has a degree of success to the point of commercial viability.

in Christ,

Bob

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BobRyan: On the contrary – Intelligent Design is a science that has not only been proven – it has been proven to the point of commercial viability. Consider the case of the “SCAN” function of your radio tuner in your car.

Eugene said:
That’s a bad example Bob. All car radio tuners are built to focus in on signal strength, not intelligence. You are right though, such a radio could be built that could filter out loud noise

Err ummm… that is the “how” they focus on intelligent design .. and you left out scanners that employ signal-to-noise discriminators and pattern matching even to the point of music style scanning. ( But who’s getting sidetracked on the “how”?) My point is that the purpose is to dynamically “discover” the desired set of nearby radio stations (vs the undesired set of available screeching sources).

And because those EM waveforms emitted by radio stations are I.D products rather than “the random acts of nature” – the point remains (regardless of the various signal attributes being monitored).

in Christ,

Bob

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Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, [b]I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/B]

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Not too surprising — The Adventist Review published a glowing review of Clay Peck’s “Grace Place” community church in Denver Colorado after sending one of their editors there to reveiw what was going on at Grace Place. The AR article came out the same month that Grace Place removed itself from Adventist fellowship.

I don’t think AR is trying to make these mistakes – I just think their staff does not have the focus on doctrine and theology that many people imagine. I believe that to the degree you do see such a focus at the AR it is coming from contributors not from the marketing group or editors other than William Johnson.

in Christ,

Bob

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Eugene Shubert: Do you have a degree in a scientific field Bob?

Eugene, since you are preeminently qualified in things scientific, I will also here post your self-proclaimed qualifications in another very important field:

“…my credentials really are unbelievable. By faith and prophetic understanding, I suppose that I have been appointed to bring about the fulfillment of William Miller’s dream… The second half of the dream foretells an experience fulfilled largely by me…”

“I believe that I had a revelatory experience somewhat comparable to the Apostle Paul and William Miller… At the end of those 3 incredible weeks I had all of Daniel and Revelation figured out… I was supernaturally driven to study the book of Daniel and was in a constant state of being continually overwhelmed by revelation. At the end of it I was a Bible scholar that had all of Daniel and Revelation figured out.”

“I can not be accused of bias. For those who understand my notes I think it’s obvious that the conclusions I came to were given to me by God… God has given me incredible new light that answers the greatest theological riddles in Adventism:…” – Eugene Shubert ‘The New William Miller’

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