BobRyan said -
“What he was careful not to state – is that as the figurehead of leadership in our church Paulsen and NAD presidents had a huge degree of influence with church members and by voicing their outright disapproval of this or that institution – they could “clarify the issue” for would be parents and students of those institutions, AND he could influence constituent voters associated with the various unions that were mismanaging their duties. Saying any of that would be “the rest of the story” and would be laying at least “some” of the responsibility at his own door.”

@Jere:

I firmly believe that both the GC President and NAD President could, thru their influence, cause the University to take the necessary action to insure that evolution is not given a favored position in any of the curriculum.

Agreed. So I don’t think he has the option of justifying innaction regarding this gross level of crisis – that has continued under his presidency – that some of his comments would suppose.

He is at the top Administrative position and “the buck stops here” is the sign that should be sitting on his desk.

in Christ,

Bob

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@Victor Marshall:

Victor Marshall says:
March 10, 2010 @BobRyan:

Bob,
I knew that you would respond with a more thorough and articulate research analysis of the tithe issues. I have to confess that applying the term ‘independent ministry’ to pastors wives strikes me as pushing it a bit. My own wife is my co-laborer in every aspect of pastoral/evangelistic ministry, and she would never use that term to describe what she does. I do think that many pastors wives should be paid from the tithe resources for what they do(of course Ellen White taught that). That would not make them an ‘independent ministry.’

Is your wife listed as an empoyee of the church simply by virtue of marriage – does she get a W2 or does she take “assignments” from the conference or the Union? Is it ok for church members to redirect their tithes directly to paying “your wife”?

Suppose for example she were to start a bible study group with the women in her neighborhood, or start publishing a Christian magazine, or a TV program or a Radio “Bible Answers” program – all on her own. Could we then divert tithe funds directly to her and not call that an “independent ministry” simply because she is also your wife?

In any case – you see the sticky wicket this creates.

My point is not to argue for tithe funds sent to this or that independant ministry.

It is simply to point out that the problem is not the tiddy little thing that is sometimes presented.

The term that is often preferred for para-church organizations who conduct themselves in harmony with the main church’s policies is ’supporting ministry.’ Many of these organizations belong to umbrella groups such as ASI and OCI. The reception of tithe is not acceptable for membership in either of these organizations. Ex.
“OCI members refuse to solicit or to accept tithe from Seventh-day Adventist church members.”

I believe it is a matter of record that as of the 1970′s all of the major SDA supporting ministries (Faith for Today, It is Written, Amazing Facts, VOP) were accepting Tithe dollars. The “policy” of the GC Exec Committee adopted in 1980 was directly opposed to the practice that Ellen White had not only of redirecting her own tithe funds – but also of accepting tithes of other members for the specifically stated purpose of redirecting them and also defending other contemporaries who sent their own tithes directly to unfunded Adventist ministries – not even going through Ellen White to do it.

in Christ,

Bob

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We seem to have gotten off the track onto tithing and this seems to be hardly a venue for such a discussion.

I firmly believe that both the GC President and NAD President could, thru their influence, cause the University to take the necessary action to insure that evolution is not given a favored position in any of the curriculum.

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The returning of tithe is not a ‘test of fellowship’. This means that for an individual to be a member in good standing they do not have to pay tithe. On the other hand, baptismal vow number 9 asks the question, ‘Is it your purpose to support the church by your tithes and offerings?’ Tithing is strongly encouraged for those who join the church but it is not mandatory.

Though it is not a test of fellowship, it is a test of leadership. To be ordained or elected to an office, one should be a tithe payer. The church manual says this regarding church officers:
‘Anyone who fails to set an example in this important matter should not be elected to the position of elder or to any other church office.’

Knowledge of individual members stewardship habits should be kept confidential with the church pastor and treasurer unless some issue mandates others should know – for example with a church nominating committee that needs to know whether a person is eligible for election.
I’m guessing at least in theory, conferences or union leadership etc. could terminate those who are receiving tithe as salary, yet who are not also returning tithe themselves.

When it comes to larger organizations and ministries that are not authorized to receive tithe; it is very difficult for any authoritative wing of the church to monitor whether these organizations are receiving tithe – or to discipline them for doing so. If an organization is openly doing so – this usually indicates that this group is ‘independent’ and ‘under the frown of the church.’

From a spiritual perspective, the Bible, and especially the Spirit of Prophecy, indicate that it is a serious transgression to retain, misuse, or otherwise divert God’s money for personal use or toward a personally preferred purpose. One of the primary purposes of the exercise is to have us surrender complete control over one tenth of our means so that it is no longer considered ours at all. To use it ourselves (for whatever purpose) is a form of robbery. A similar principle is at work with the Sabbath. One seventh of our time is completely surrendered to God. It is no longer our time to do with as we wish – it is now the Lord’s. To use it for purposes other than which God has designated it may also be viewed as a form of robbery.

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Bob,
I knew that you would respond with a more thorough and articulate research analysis of the tithe issues. I have to confess that applying the term ‘independent ministry’ to pastors wives strikes me as pushing it a bit. My own wife is my co-laborer in every aspect of pastoral/evangelistic ministry, and she would never use that term to describe what she does. I do think that many pastors wives should be paid from the tithe resources for what they do(of course Ellen White taught that). That would not make them an ‘independent ministry.’

In today’s context, when we think of an ‘independent ministry’ receiving tithe, we think of organizations who have adopted an independent spirit, theology, and policy from that which is approved by the church at large. We think of organizations who are at odds with the church.

The term that is often preferred for para-church organizations who conduct themselves in harmony with the main church’s policies is ’supporting ministry.’ Many of these organizations belong to umbrella groups such as ASI and OCI. The reception of tithe is not acceptable for membership in either of these organizations. Ex.
“OCI members refuse to solicit or to accept tithe from Seventh-day Adventist church members.”

Neither of these two major Adventist organizations, or their individual member groups, believe that Ellen White’s statements quoted above justify their receiving tithe money at all – even though they are ’supporting ministries’ of the church. One cardinal principle that makes them ’supporting’ is their refusal to receive tithe.

If we accept these definitions, then Ellen White did not receive and direct tithe toward ‘independent ministries’.
The fact that she did not want this practice made known is extremely telling. By widely commenting on the practice on the worldwide web (even implying that others might be justified in following her example) – we are going contrary to her wishes.

Finally, you quote Ellen White saying the following:

“I have myself appropriated my tithe to the most needy cases brought to my notice. I have been instructed to do this; and as the money is not withheld from the Lord’s treasury, it is not a matter that should be commented upon…”

You comment by saying that this quote is an example of Ellen White explicitly stating that the ‘Lord’s Storehouse’ could be something other than the conference treasury. This seems to be pushing it a bit too. This quote only supports the conclusion that the prophet herself could be considered a part of the Lord’s treasury as she personally received and directed tithe toward bonafide ministries in financial crisis.

Perhaps now you can understand why your previous statements could be easily misunderstood and misapplied:

“Ellen White gave a portion of her own tithes to independant ministries and also defended the right of other contemporary Adventists who did the same thing”
In other words Ellen White gave tithes to organizations who were at odds with the main denomination. She also defended the right of Adventists to apply their tithes to the ministry of their choice – even ‘independent’ ones.

“Ellen White was clear on one thing “the storehouse of the Lord” was not limited to the conference treasury”
In other words, since the the storehouse analogy was not limited – it could be applied to ‘independent’ ministries!

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BobRyan: Thus Ellen White argues that tithe funds redirected to unfunded ministries in the South, and to minister’s wives who elected to conduct their own independent ministries, and to retired ministers who were not being funded by the conference – none of those examples of “redirection” was a case of money not going to the Lord’s Storehouse according to Ellen White.

That is excellent material, Brother Bob. We may notice that, “none of these [three] examples of ‘redirection’” done or encouraged by E.G.W. was because of Conference apostasy or mismanagement of funds.

God loves you, and He stands at the helm. If the conference business is not managed according to the order of the Lord, that is the sin of the erring ones. The Lord will not hold you responsible for it, if you do what you can to correct the evil. But do not commit sin yourselves by withholding from God His own property. Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 1, pp. 27, 28 (Aug. 10, 1890) emphasis supplied.

The reason that justifies the said unusual pattern of giving in the midst of all the counsel given on this subject, both Biblically and through the testimony of the Spirit of God, is not leverage against our leaders.
God bless,

Rich

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@BobRyan:

From the Spalding and Megan collection we learned that Ellen White gave a portion of her own tithes to independant ministries and also defended the right of other contemporary Adventists who did the same thing.

Some have argued that these were special cases – but Ellen White was clear on one thing “the storehouse of the Lord” was not limited to the conference treasury.

I don’t say this to discourage anyone from giving to their conference or Union as the Lord leads them. I am just stating a fact of history.

Having said that – I repeat – I am not arguing for anyone to send tithe dollars to this independant ministry or to that one. I am just pointing to a historic fact.

@Victor Marshall:

Bob,
You need to stop listening to independent ministry propaganda. Ellen White did not give tithe to ‘independent ministries.’ Her special use of tithe was applied to denominationally recognized ministers who were poverty stricken and destitute because conference administrators(who had been notified by her)were not responding to their needs.

You are right to observe that some of those that Ellen White gave both her tithe dollars – and other people’s tithe dollars — to, were in fact retired ministers – licensed by the Adventist church.

Many of the independant ministries today – are also staffed by licensed SDA ministers.

Other projects that Ellen White devoted tithe dollars to – included unfunded missions in the South, as well as independant missionary and evangelistic work done by pastor’s wives without pay.

@Victor Marshall:

She did not encourage anyone else to follow her example On the contrary she discouraged others from following her special emergency example(‘I would not advise that anyone should make a practice of gathering up tithe money… I write to you so that you shall keep cool and not become stirred up and give publicity to this matter, lest any more follow their example.’Watson Letter). This was ‘Her special work.’ Not the special work of others.

It is odd that you would quote that – because that same letter includes specific examples of other Adventists asking Ellen White to help them redirect their tithes outside of the conference treasury.

Some cases have been kept before me for years, and I have supplied their needs from the tithe, as God has instructed me to do. And if any person shall say to me, Sister White, will you appropriate my tithe where you know it is most needed, I shall say, Yes, I will; and I have done so. I commend those sisters who have placed their tithe where it is most needed to help to do a work that is being left undone; and if this matter is given publicity, it will create knowledge which would better be left as it is. I do not care to give publicity to this work which the Lord has appointed me to do, and others to do .

I send this matter to you so that you shall not make a mistake. Circumstances alter cases. I would not advise that any should make a practice of gathering up tithe money. But for years there have now and then been persons who have lost confidence in the appropriation of the tithe who have placed their tithe in my hands, and said that if I did not take it they would themselves appropriate it to the families of the most needy minister they could find. I have taken the money, given a receipt for it, and told them how it was appropriated.

Thus Ellen White indicates that this mechanism involved redirecting not only her own tithes – but the tithes of others as well.

As for ministries not funded by the conference -

Dear Brn. Evans, Smith, and Jones: —
I received your letter, and will write a few lines now. . . . . . . . . . {SpM 117.2}
There are ministers’ wives, Sisters Starr, Haskell, Wilson and Robinson, who have been devoted, earnest, whole-souled workers, giving Bible readings and praying with families, helping along by personal efforts just as successfully as their husbands. These women give their whole time, and are told that they receive nothing for their labors because their husbands receive their wages. I tell them to go forward and all such decisions shall be reversed. The Word says, “The laborer is worthy of his hire.” When any such decision as this is made, I will in the name of the Lord, protest. I will feel it in my duty to create a fund from my tithe money, to pay these women

As for Ellen White standing in bold defense of others who were redirecting tithe dollars to unfunded ministries in the south.

In regard to the colored work in the South, that field has been and is still being robbed of the means that should come to the workers of that field. If there has been cases where our sisters have appropriated their tithe to the support of the ministers working for the colored people in the South, let every man, if he is wise, hold his peace.

@Victor Marshall:

She made no clear statements that the storehouse also represented independent ministries. She does equate the ’storehouse’ with the conference treasury and refers to it as ‘God’s treasury.’

I agree that Ellen White clearly identified the conference treasury as one of the valid examples of the “Lord’s Storehouse” – but she explicitly stated it was not the ONLY example of it.

I have myself appropriated my tithe to the most needy cases brought to my notice. I have been instructed to do this; and as the money is not withheld from the Lord’s treasury, it is not a matter that should be commented upon; for it will necessitate my making known these matters, which I do not desire to do, because it is not best.

Thus Ellen White argues that tithe funds redirected to unfunded ministries in the South, and to minister’s wives who elected to conduct their own independent ministries, and to retired ministers who were not being funded by the conference – none of those examples of “redirection” was a case of money not going to the Lord’s Storehouse according to Ellen White.

in Christ,

Bob

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