Comment on Dr. Geraty clarifies his “Challenge” to literal 6-day creationism by Sean Pitman.
The engine and core rationale behind theological liberalism in the church is the idea that what we believeâ€“and how we liveâ€“will not affect our eternal destiny. Now we see so blatantly revealed the connection of this false doctrine of cheap grace to the devaluation of truth now evident in our midst.
How does this brother handle such Biblical passages as the following?
â€œMy people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject theeâ€ (Hosea 4:6).
â€œGod hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truthâ€ (II Thess. 2:13).
â€œTake heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine: continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear theeâ€ (I Tim. 4:16).
These passages stand in sharp contrast with the popular illusion among us that doctrinal belief is not a salvation issue. According to the above verses, it most assuredly is!
As already noted above, doctrinal understanding and belief is not directly a salvational issue. Many people will be saved in heaven who never knew anything about the creation week, the life and death of Jesus, or even His existence, or anything else about the Great Controversy or the Gospel Story. They will be saved according to how they lived compared to the Law of Love that was written upon their hearts by the Divine finger of God.
However, this doesn’t mean that a correct doctrinal understanding is not important. It is. Doctrines have the power to make our lives better and more tolerable here and now… and to lead to a closer walk with God and a stronger hope. This in turn has the power to give us increased strength to walk hand-in-hand with God without letting go… which indirectly plays into our salvation.
So, when Hosea aruges that God people are dying for a lack of knowledge, it doesn’t neccessarily mean an eternal death. In order to die the eternal death, true knowledge must first be understood to be true, consciously, and then deliberately rejected in favor of what one knows to be darkness. Only then is a person unsavable. How so? Because, a deliberate reject of the light means that no further light will be able to convince or change a person from their love of darkness. There simply isn’t anything more that God can do for such a person. Such are left to their chosen insanity… an insanity which ends in oblivion.
Sean Pitman Also Commented
Sean, it seems to me that if you admit ANY functional change in the DNA the creation/evolution debate is lost in favor of evolution. All the rest, however you define species is just a matter of time and quantity.
Hardly. The vast majority of functional mutations are detrimental – based on a loss of qualitatively unique pre-established functionality. Most of the rare mutations that are functionally beneficial do not produce something that is qualitatively new within the gene pool of options, but produce only an increase or decrease in activity of the same type of functionality that was already there to begin with. And, the very rare beneficial mutations that actually produce something qualitatively unique as well as functionally beneficial never produce anything that requires a minimum of more than 1000 specifically arranged amino acid residues to work – not even close.
The reason for this is that evolution beyond this very low level of functional complexity would require trillions upon trillions of years to achieve – – on average.
This is why the constant demonstration of low-level examples of “evolution in action” do not remotely explain how higher levels of evolution are therefore reasonable – even given a few billion years. The extrapolation is not at all reasonable because of the exponential decline in evolutionary potential with each step up the ladder of functional complexity.
You say, “it’s just a matter of time and quantity”. What you don’t understanding is that the time required is simply not reasonable. The time required to get beyond even the 1000aa level is in the multiple trillions of years. Do you not see that as a problem?
That is why I think it is so dangerous to state that evolution is incompatible with belief in God and creation, because no one, not even you are willing to deny that that the mechanisms for evolution are in place.
The mechanism for evolution is not “in place” beyond extremely low levels of functional complexity. That’s the problem.
It’s similar to saying that because natural processes are known which can produce roughly cube shape granite blocks that obviously such mindless natural mechanisms could explain a highly symmetrical polished granite cube measuring exactly one meter on each side. Such a conclusion does not rationally follow since the higher level illustration requires exponentially more time for the natural mechanism to achieve relative to the lower level demonstration that does not require the same level of constraints…
Except out of wanton ignorance, it is not possible to deny evolution in this day of DNA mapping. If you insist on making evolution and belief in God mutually exclusive you will have to declare every single educated person in the church to be athiests and drive them out of the church. Your stance just isnâ€™t reasonable.
Anyone who wishes to worship in our Church is welcome – even if he/she is an “atheists”. I would not drive anyone who wants to come out of our Church. However, this does not mean that such a one should ever expect to get a paycheck from the SDA Church for promoting his/her atheistic ideas from pulpit or classroom.
You see, attendance is not the same thing as paid representation. A paid representative must be held to a higher standard in any organization.
I agree with this general line of reasoningâ€¦
In other words, youâ€™d believe in the existence and love of God despite all physical evidence to the contrary? That is very similar to the faith of some LDS friends of mine. I suppose it works for some people, but my own relationship with God is based on the evidence that I think He has given me of His own existence and the reliability of his Word combined with personal experiences with answers to prayer, etc.
Now, I agree with you that theistic evolutionists can be saved even if they got the whole origins thing all wrong. God loves everyone and will save all who earnestly seek after Him and love Him in the person of â€œthe least of theseâ€¦â€ Salvation itself is not based on correct doctrinal knowledge, but on living according to the Royal Law of Love. However, correct doctrinal knowledge is not therefore worthless. It is very valuable in that it has the power to give us a clearer picture of God here and now and to provide a solid basis of hope here in now in the reality of God and of a bright and glorious future.
Iâ€™m sorry, but without correct doctrinal knowledge, without the Bible, you may have some sort of vague idea of Godâ€™s existence and maybe even His love for you through the features of nature, but you would have very little else upon which to base a solid hope in such notions. It is the evidence that the Bible is reliable in those things which can be tested and evaluated that gives solid confidence in those metaphysical statements that cannot be directed evaluated â€“ at least for me.
This is why when you argue so strongly for the idea that science works against SDA doctrinal positions and offer nothing up but blind faith that the Bible is true that you undermine the basis of many peopleâ€™s hope in the reality of the Good News. Your seeming suggestion is that science is quite clearly contrary to some very plain biblical statements and that the only way to overcome such evidence is through blind faith. That simply doesnâ€™t do it for many many people. It certainly doesnâ€™t do it for me.
I hope this helps you to at least understand why your ideas and comments are so strongly opposed by those who actually consider it important that the Bible be consistent with the physical evidence in order for its metaphysical statements to be considered trustworthyâ€¦
Recent Comments by Sean Pitman
Are mRNA Vaccines for COVID-19 helpful or harmful?
Regarding the recent situation where 23 nursing home patients died in Norway following vaccination the mRNA vaccines of Pfizer and/or Moderna (given to 30,000 people so far), these patients were all over the age of 80, were very frail. It is also somewhat difficult to determine a link in this particular population between the vaccine and any other potential cause of death – since around 400 nursing home patients die in Norway every week. However, at this point, it is not ruled out that adverse reactions occurring within the first days following vaccination (such as fever and nausea) may contribute to a more serious course and fatal outcome in patients with severe underlying disease and general frailty.
Steinar Madsen, medical director with the Norwegian Medicines Agency, said: “We are not alarmed by this. It is quite clear that these vaccines have very little risk, with a small exception for the frailest patients.” (Link)
The Norwegian Institute of Public Health said concluded that “for very frail patients and terminally ill patients, a careful balance of benefit versus disadvantage of vaccination is recommended.” (Link)
Consider this also in the light that more than 30% of nursing home residents are likely to die if an outbreak of COVID-19 occurs. So, weighing the risks and benefits of taking the vaccine vs. being exposed to a potential COVID-19 outbreak seems to weigh heavily in favor of taking the vaccine – with the exception, perhaps, of those who are already very frail.
“For such a time as this”
It’s a serious mistake to compare the advances of modern medicine to the prophecies of Ellen White regarding the activity of Satan during the Last Days – where Satan appears as a powerful angel of light, even taking on the form, appearance, and attitude of Christ (making fire come down from the sky and healing the sick and speaking words of grace and comfort in order to deceive the world). Are you really suggesting that the modern mRNA vaccines against COVID-19 are actually part of these final “benevolent” works of Satan? How is this anything but extremist nonsense? – a rejection of a gift of God to help humanity by claiming that it is actually the work of Satan himself? This sort of thing reminds me of this passage in Matthew:
But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.” (Matthew 12:24)
You do realize, after all, that Ellen White took the smallpox vaccine herself during an outbreak? as did her son William White? and that she recommended that all of the others who were with her at the time take the vaccine as well? (Link) Contrary to some claims that I’ve heard regarding her actions here, it wasn’t that the vaccines in her day were less risky or more “pure” than they are today. They were actually riskier compared to modern vaccines, but still far far less risky compared to getting the actual infection itself. That’s why she took the vaccine. She also recommended that missionaries in areas infested with malaria take quinine – that we should, “do the best we can” in such situations (Link). When medications are beneficial and are appropriate, they may be used. When surgery is called for, it should be performed. In 1905 Ellen White wrote:
“It is not a denial of faith to use such remedies as God has provided to alleviate pain and to aid nature in her work of restoration…. God has put it in our power to obtain a knowledge of the laws of life. This knowledge has been placed within our reach for use. We should employ every facility for the restoration of health, taking every advantage possible, working in harmony with natural laws… It is our privilege to use every God-appointed means in correspondence with our faith, and then trust in God,… If there is need of a surgical operation, and the physician is willing to undertake the case, it is not a denial of faith to have the operation performed… Before major surgery, the entire body is saturated with a powerful and, in a sense, harmful drug [the anesthetic], to the point of complete unconsciousness and to complete insensibility. By the same token, after surgical procedures, the physician may find it necessary to administer medications that almost certainly include drugs to give relief and prevent the patient from lapsing, from sheer pain, into a state of surgical shock and, in some instances, possible death.” (Link)
Ellen White also recognized that blood transfusions could save lives. She herself had radiation therapy — X-ray treatments at Loma Linda for a skin problem. In short, she was not opposed to reasonable advances of modern medicine, accepting them as gifts of God, not sinister plots of Satan. We should remember her example in this regard and no turn away from the gifts of God that He has granted us through the advances of modern medicine.
As promised, I took a look at Sangers Sequencing and I found a 43 page PDF from the FDA who is complicit in the scam–it’s simply the entirety of the PCR test they all are using…
You don’t know the first thing about PCR or genetic sequencing. Did you even watch the video about Sanger Sequencing that I recommended?
Why would I need to study science for years to be able to break down all of these 43 pages of information, and critically analyze it?
Because, you don’t know the first thing about these scientific tests, not even the basics. Yet you feel yourself free to make claims about them that are absolutely false. You even claim that you’re guided by the Holy Spirit when you make these false claims – which is a very dangerous thing to do. You’re treading on holy ground with your presumptuous claims.
John_16:13 However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
This doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit gives you knowledge about things that you are unwilling to seriously study or investigate or that He will guide you when you are unwilling and too arrogant to change when errors are revealed to you. You’re simply wrong with your understanding of PCR and how it is used. You don’t understand the first thing about genetic sequencing, and you’re even wrong about Mrs. White and her own use and recommendation of vaccines for others. Almost nothing you’ve said is true. Yet, you claim to be guided directly by God in this nonsense of yours? Please…
There’s simply no point in discussing these things further with you. It’s just no longer useful to me.
Wow, I got this from you on this first day that I looked at your information on Dr. Wakefield–I had never heard of BrandNewTube until I saw this video. Watch out what you link to–now according to you, I’m into “conspiracy theories” because I got BrandNewTube from you.
I cited the Wakefield video as an example of a conspiracy theorist with ideas and claims that simply aren’t credible, even outlandishly wrong, given what we actually know about mRNA vaccines. And, this same website hosts many other conspiratorial videos as well. Christians should strive to avoid being associated with such conspiracies.
Then you proceed to shoot down the PCR inventor’s own testimony about his own test because he was into astrology. So what. Has Satan ever had any part into you? or me? Absolutely–and you dare to speak nonsense and garbage about someone who is dead and cannot defend themselves? Wow, Sean, how far will you go to defend your false science?
Showing that someone is “into” a whole lot of non-credible beliefs and conspiracies plays into that person’s overall credibility – especially given the very relevant nonsense claims of Mullis regarding HIV/AIDS. This is something to consider when someone is cited as an “authority” or “expert” to support this or that sensational claim that supposedly falsifies the vast majority of scientists and medical experts on a particular topic.
Now, this doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re wrong in your claim. In fact, your claim that PCR cannot, by itself, prove the existence of a new virus is absolutely true! I agree with you here! However, what you don’t understand is that, as I’ve explained in some detail already, PCR wasn’t used, by itself, to demonstrate the existence or genetic makeup of the COVID-19 virus. The genetic sequencing that was done to initially detect the COVID-19 virus and its genetic makeup is quite involved and very interesting (and goes well beyond PCR) – if you care to actually learn something. I recommend starting the “Sanger Sequencing” (watch the short video explaining it that I posted in my comment above).
I ask myself, is it reasonable? Can I analyze it properly? What real evidence is there? And last but not least–what does the Holy Spirit reveal to me?
John_16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of himself; but whatever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will show you things to come (AKJV).
This tells me that “all truth” means exactly that, and not just Bible truth, or religious truth. This is why I know positively that this pandemic is a hoax–based upon the PCR test that cannot detect any virus–I’ve seen and heard the real science, and the motives behind it–Satan is at the root of it all. Of course he’s the author of real pandemics and epidemics too.
So, the Holy Spirit informs you regarding the “truth” of your medical opinions? That’s kind of a conversation stopper now isn’t it? Who can argue with someone who is informed directly by God?
In any case, as I’ve explained to you before, the process of detecting a new type of virus and determining its genetics isn’t based on PCR alone. It’s a more complex and interesting process. It was originally discovered by biochemist Fred Sanger (i.e., “Sanger Sequencing” – described in my comment above) and has been modified and improved since then with subsequent “generations” of genetic sequencing techniques. So, why not try to learn something about how it’s really done instead of repeating the same false claims?
Same with all vaccines, what a scam that is! Far too many injuries and deaths have been reported in the VAERS system over the years, and that my friend, is not any conspiracy theory. Even the Federal Vaccine Court is a joke–some cases like mine never even make it there–dropped by attorneys for money reasons–not a smoking gun or serious enough for them to make the fees they want.
VAERS takes all reports of anything that happens post-vaccine – regardless of any proof as to the actual cause of the event. It simply isn’t what the anti-vaxxers make it out to be. Sure, “since 1988, when the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) began, more than 16,000 claims have been considered and a whopping $3.18 billion have been awarded to families alleging some kind of harm from vaccines. That sounds awfully damning, and in this case, unlike in so many other cases, the anti-vaccine crowd isn’t just making stuff up. The numbers are real and the federal government is the first to admit it. But the anti-vaxxers are utterly wrong in their interpretation of what the numbers mean. And in fact, the numbers prove that vaccines are as safe as the medical community says they are. Understanding why that’s so means going beyond the tired alarmism and looking at the facts.”
The purpose of the court is to reckon with the reality that while vaccines are every bit as safe and life-saving as health authorities say they are, no drug or medical procedure is entirely without risks. Since many millions of children get vaccinated every year, even a few bad outcomes could subject the drug-makers to a storm of liability suits. Some claims might be legitimate, but far more could be frivolous or even fraudulent. Either way, the endless litigation could drive up the costs of vaccines… In 80% of all cases brought since 2006, the parties settle, meaning that the petitioner recovers an award with no determination being made about whether the vaccine even caused the claimed harm.
Even without blame being established, the billions the government has handed over in payouts since the VICP was created does seem to suggest that a whole lot of people are being harmed. But that is not the case. From 2006 to 2014, approximately 2.5 billion doses of vaccines were administered in the U.S. In that time, a total of just 2,976 claims were adjudicated by the special masters and only 1,876 of those received compensation. Divide that number by the vaccine dose total and you get less than a one in a million risk of harm. Going all the way back to 1988—before the flu vaccine became part of the recommended schedule of vaccines—a total of 16,038 claims have been adjudicated and 4,150 have been compensated, bringing the total payouts up to the $3.18 billion figure.
The article continues to explain why the claims of the anti-vaxx conspiracy theorists here are just out to lunch. While vaccines aren’t entirely risk free, they are a whole lot less risky compared to the diseases that they provide immunity against.
Lots of studies suggest or show how harmful vaccines are.
Actually, the very clear weight of good scientific studies that are available to us strongly supports the conclusion that vaccines are very safe and very effective. It simply isn’t true that there are a significant number of good scientific studies showing that vaccines are actually more harmful than they are beneficial. That conclusion simply isn’t supported by the empirical evidence that we have in hand – not even close.
The info below is backed by scientific studies–a day old baby is assaulted by a Hep B vaccine when it’s just coming alive and drawing it’s first breaths–many are vaccinated a short time later and die suddenly in their cribs, or beds–SIDS deaths. The vaccine industry makes money and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation’s depopulation plan claims another innocent victim–not conspiracy theory.
Since I’m a parent, I can tell you that SIDS is a real concern for most parents. And, if SIDS were related to vaccinations, I certainly would want to know about it. However, since I have performed autopsies on SIDS infants, the evidence is that SIDS is related to suffocation, with petechial hemorrhages on the surfaces of the lungs (as one sees in cases of known suffocation). Still, there was some initial concern about SIDS and vaccines, but after extensive study of this question, it is now known that there is no relationship between vaccines and SIDS. For example:
The ABC news program 20/20 aired a story in 1999 claiming that the hepatitis B vaccine caused sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). The story included a picture of a 1-month-old girl who died of SIDS only 16 hours after receiving the second dose of hepatitis B vaccine.
At the time of introduction of the hepatitis B vaccine for routine use in all infants, about 5,000 children died every year from SIDS. Within 10 years of the introduction of the hepatitis B vaccine the use of the vaccine increased to about 90 percent of all infants and the incidence of SIDS in that group decreased dramatically to about 1,600 cases each year.
The cause of the decrease in SIDS cases was the introduction of the “Back to Sleep” program by the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP).
However, since immunizations are given to about 90 percent of children less than 1 year of age, and about 1,600 cases of SIDS occur every year, it would be expected, statistically, that every year about 50 cases of SIDS will occur within 24 hours of receipt of a vaccine. However, because the incidence of SIDS is the same in children who do or do not receive vaccines, we know that SIDS is not caused by vaccines.
As for Dr. Wakefield the courageous CDC whistleblower–has my thanks for what he did–we need more doctors like him that denies the moneyed, evil influences of Big Pharma putting his own career in jeopardy because he really cares about others.
As for the 2 doctors you just linked to on youtube that promote the pandemic lies–I can find and link to just as many doctors who know and reveal the truth of this hoax.
I’m sorry, but the vast majority of scientists and medical doctors disagree with you here – especially those who see and treat the many who are dying of COVID every day in this country. Dr. Roger Seheult personally sees dozens of people die of COVID-19 on a weekly basis. You just don’t understand because you haven’t seen it. Contrary to your very confidently claims that these people are dying of something else, that’s just nonsense coming from someone who is far more arrogant than anything else – without any first-hand knowledge or experience. The vascular damage and thrombosis associated with those who die of COVID-19 is distinct. It’s unlike anything else.
The British doctor recommended 20,000 IU’s daily of vitamin D3–a bit high, I would say–I use 3— 5 thousand daily as recommended by Walt Cross, SDA Medical Missionary in Tennessee. It appears that too high a dose daily will negatively increase calcium in the body.
Watch the video again. Dr. Campbell did not recommend 20,000 IU’s of Vitamin D per day. Rather he said that he personally takes just 2,000 IUs of Vitamin D supplements per day – while Dr. Seheult takes about 4,000 units/day. Beyond this, it is very unlikely that anyone will experience significantly increased calcium blood levels if taking 10,000 units/day or less of Vitmain D.
He also said, “I’m happy with the vaccines.” Right, I hope they live through the vaccines that are useless and not needed. Too much propaganda for me–I prefer real doctors and not clones of the corrupted medical system.
Again, the doctors you’re listening to are in the extreme minority and generally aren’t directly involved in taking care of COVID-19 patients. Dr. Seheult is a pulmonologist who deals with these COVID-19 patients on a daily basis. He’s also a conservative Seventh-day Adventist who is doing his very best to help his patients physically, mentally, and spiritually. And you think you know better? Oh, I forget, the Holy Spirit tells you, so there’s really no point in further discussion because the Holy Spirit certainly hasn’t told me what He’s told you. You forget that you’re supposed to “test the spirits”. And, so far, almost everything that you’ve said regarding COVID-19 and vaccines is false and misleading. I’m sorry, but that’s not coming from the Holy Spirit my friend…