Re David’s Quote “Ken, it is a wishful construct. The “objective …

Comment on At La Sierra, Biology Faculty Affirms Importance of Teaching About Creation in Curriculum by ken.

Re David’s Quote

“Ken, it is a wishful construct. The “objective truth about the universe” if there is such a thing, is not knowable. You have to make a faith choice about what to believe. Without faith there is nothing. No theism and certainly no Christianity.”

But David, is it not more knowable vis a vis science? Don’t we objectively know more about the universe now than when Genesis was first penned? Isn’t it wonderful to be witnessing the birth of planets through a telescope?

Is not all faith, vs. empirical observation, a wishful construct? Perhaps without faith or non faith there is clarity.

Your agnostic friend
Ken

ken Also Commented

At La Sierra, Biology Faculty Affirms Importance of Teaching About Creation in Curriculum
Re Wes’s Quote

“What else did you sneak into that classic agnostic pot-pourri that sings and sighs and does not hiss?”

Just enough spice to get Wes to lift the lid and have a sniff. Throw some Hiram Edson into the brew and let all investigate, but not be too judgmental, about the primordial soup.

Loved the part about the purloined question mark. Talk about punctuated intervention rather than equilibrium. (I can hear Gould and God chuckling 🙂

Indubitably -how ironic- your playful agnostic friend
Ken


At La Sierra, Biology Faculty Affirms Importance of Teaching About Creation in Curriculum
Re Erv`s and David`s Quotes

`Ken says he is an agnostic. Thus I assume he is not an atheist, meaning he is not sure because there is not being enough good evidence one way or the other. This seems to me to be a very reasonable position. I have always been attracted to the position of Christian agnosticism.`

`I was chuckling at the phrase “Christian agnosticism” when I thought about it realized that while it is of course an oxymoron, so is “theistic evolution.” `

Dear Erv and David

Thanks for the astute comments, enjoyed them both.

Firstly Erv I do apologize for my blunt apothegm. By the way, I don`t hear any hissing from the `pot` if that is of comfort. And I haven`t been smoking any notwithstanding my crude prose. 🙂 My point, rudely put, was the relative perspective of both your`s and Sean`s criticism of each other.

As someone who thinks evolution presents the best likely explanation for origin of life on earth, naturally it would seem I favour progressive adventism. But I don`t because such progression still likely excludes other faith perspectives.

As you know. I think Dr. Pitman`s efforts are laudable. but perhaps quixotic. in light of the vast volume of evidence supporting evolution. But progressive adventism may suffer from an equal degree of hubris by trying to unwind rather rigid doctrine and bend it into new adventist DNA. At what point does such new creature become a new religious species. (excuse my poor punctuation, my computer won`t make question marks this morning).

David, I think I understand Erv`s point about Christian agnosticism and it is a good one. Here is my take. Let`s say God is truly trying to be Mankind`s salvation and attempts to reach all mankind through a variety of means and manifestation over time. Let`s say that Christ is the latest and greatest of those manifestations. Perhaps even agnostics can appreciate the goodness of the man and what he was trying to teach! But let`s say that scientific progress indicates that a literal interpretation of the Bible is hard to swallow as reality. So what is the conflicted person left with. A longing for the grace of Christology combined with the need to inquire about the objective truth of the universe. I`d say I come close to that but I like the Dalai Lama too, as well as Stephen Hawking as Gandhi, as well as Erv, Sean, Wesley….

Then again this variant of Christian agnosticism may simply be a wishful construct of my feeble mind.

Your agnostic friend
Ken


At La Sierra, Biology Faculty Affirms Importance of Teaching About Creation in Curriculum
Dear Sean

You have absolutely nailed the absurdity of comparing faith based beliefs. How can any claim self riighteous superiority? How can any claim my prophet is better than your prophet? My interpretation of a sacred text is better than yours?

Why is theistic evolution superior to literal Genises or vice versa?

How can Adventists justify the Investigative Judgment based upon the vision of the disgruntled Hiram Edson?

Is all faith madness, wishful thinking or a social control mechanism by the priest class of society?

That is why what you are attempting to do is right: empirically prove your faith. The modern educated mind will continue to seek objective proof of the origin of the universe and life on earth. You have a tough row to hoe to proof YLC but your methodology is correct.

On the other hand I see theistic evolution as an untenable concept as well and your point to Erv is well made. Pot should not call the kettle black.

To be objective one should not examine the origins of the universe or life based on whether there is or is not a God. One should examine by science wherever that may lead. And yes one can be.neutral in that regard, I am proof of it.

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Recent Comments by ken

God and Granite Cubes
@ Sean

I enjoyed your article. As I’ve stated before, I think Intelligent Design is a more modern form of Deism and do not think it is irrational. However, as science on an ongoing basis shows what matters are explainable by cause and effect, less is attributable to conscious design. The question of course is what are the limits of science in this regard? For example, will it ever be able to explain First Cause/

Below is a more fulsome quote of Professor Townes, an self acknowledged Protestant Christian. Please note what he has to say about literal creation and evolution. Do you think he is being more reasonable than you on the nature of design?

“I do believe in both a creation and a continuous effect on this universe and our lives, that God has a continuing influence – certainly his laws guide how the universe was built. But the Bible’s description of creation occurring over a week’s time is just an analogy, as I see it. The Jews couldn’t know very much at that time about the lifetime of the universe or how old it was. They were visualizing it as best they could and I think they did remarkably well, but it’s just an analogy.

Should intelligent design be taught alongside Darwinian evolution in schools as religious legislators have decided in Pennsylvania and Kansas?

I think it’s very unfortunate that this kind of discussion has come up. People are misusing the term intelligent design to think that everything is frozen by that one act of creation and that there’s no evolution, no changes. It’s totally illogical in my view. Intelligent design, as one sees it from a scientific point of view, seems to be quite real. This is a very special universe: it’s remarkable that it came out just this way. If the laws of physics weren’t just the way they are, we couldn’t be here at all. The sun couldn’t be there, the laws of gravity and nuclear laws and magnetic theory, quantum mechanics, and so on have to be just the way they are for us to be here.
Charles Townes
‘Faith is necessary for the scientist even to get started, and deep faith is necessary for him to carry out his tougher tasks. Why? Because he must have confidence that there is order in the universe and that the human mind – in fact his own mind – has a good chance of understanding this order.’
-Charles Townes, writing in “The Convergence of Science and Religion,” IBM’s Think magazine, March-April 1966
Some scientists argue that “well, there’s an enormous number of universes and each one is a little different. This one just happened to turn out right.” Well, that’s a postulate, and it’s a pretty fantastic postulate – it assumes there really are an enormous number of universes and that the laws could be different for each of them. The other possibility is that ours was planned, and that’s why it has come out so specially. Now, that design could include evolution perfectly well. It’s very clear that there is evolution, and it’s important. Evolution is here, and intelligent design is here, and they’re both consistent.

They don’t have to negate each other, you’re saying. God could have created the universe, set the parameters for the laws of physics and chemistry and biology, and set the evolutionary process in motion, But that’s not what the Christian fundamentalists are arguing should be taught in Kansas.

People who want to exclude evolution on the basis of intelligent design, I guess they’re saying, “Everything is made at once and then nothing can change.” But there’s no reason the universe can’t allow for changes and plan for them, too. People who are anti-evolution are working very hard for some excuse to be against it. I think that whole argument is a stupid one. Maybe that’s a bad word to use in public, but it’s just a shame that the argument is coming up that way, because it’s very misleading. “


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote

“Yes, I am suggesting that our scientists should also be theologians to some degree. I’m also suggesting that our theologians be scientists to some degree as well. There should be no distinct dividing line between the two disciplines…”

Hello Sean

First of all, thank you Holly for your comments. You have always treated me with civility and charity for which I am most grateful.

Secondly, on reflection, I do hope I was not strident or offensive in my recent remarks. I am a guest here and should behave with the utmost respect regarding my Adventist hosts. After all I was proposing the Chair of ID at an ‘Adventist’ institution! What gall and temerity from an agnostic!

However something Dr. Kime said struck a very strange chord in me: that a Chair in ID at Harvard would be a quantum leap ( forward – my edit) while such a Chair would be a step backward at LSU. I’ m very sorry Wes, but for me to honestly investigate reality such double standard is not acceptable.

I am sad today, because I think I’m coming to the end of my Adventist journey. I really did see ID as a sort of bridge between your faith and objective inquiry about a ‘Grand’ Design. (apologies Mr. Hawkings). Oh Wes , perhaps I am ontological Don Quixote after all, comically tilting towards immovable Adventist windmills. 🙁 .

However all is not forlorn because I’ve made excellent friends of the heart here. ;). I won’t forget you.

Good luck in your pursuit of God.

Goodbye
Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Wes’s Quote

“. But for a Christian, a great devolution, a great recidivation, a tragic forfeiture, foreclosure, worse. If I were to use the vocabulary of some of our recent posters, I’d not put it as delicately.”

Hi Wes and Sean

I just read again portions on ID from Sean’s website Detecting Design. I am very confused by both of your responses. Why the heck is Sean promoting ID as a scientific theory if this is such a Christian retreat? Perhaps you two differ here? I apologize if I am missing the obvious but I see a tremendous disconnect between what Sean is saying about ID and what he is prepared to do to promote it within the subset of Adventist education.

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote

“Public association is one thing. Private association is another. While many do not feel at liberty to publicly associate themselves with our work here (for obvious reasons), most who still believe in SDA fundamentals (and who are aware of the longstanding situation at LSU and other places) feel that our work in providing enhanced transparency for what is being taught to our young people in our schools was/is necessary on some level.”

Hi Sean

The irony here is that those that are supporting institutional enhanced transparency are hiding behind cloaks of anonymity. That’s not how you, I, Wes, Bob Ryan, Wes, Bill Sorenson and many others here behave. Imagine if Jesus hid behind a cloak and didn’t proclaim his nature. What legacy of respect would he have left?

Conviction requires courage period.

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Intelligent Design

Gentleman, thanks to all for your fulsome replies.

Yes Wes, I remember your cogent analysis of November 14/11. I appreciared it then and its reiteration now. indeed I was waiting to hear from others especially Sean whose site is named Detecting Design. And, here I agree with Bob, ID
does not necessarily rule out any particular design i. e. fiat
creation ot theistic evolution.

But quite frankly I am disaapointed with Sean’s response, not Sean himself for whom I have deep admiration, because I see this as a step backward. Why? Because if you burn the bridge between science and biblical faith it will not be science that suffers.

Ironically Sean makes many fine, cogent arguments for design in nature so I find his reluctance to promote it formally in Adventist education troubling. Respectfully, I don’t think serious enquiry about reality can creep around the periphery or sneak in through the back door. I’m afraid I see a double standard here.

Yes Wes, I understand why Adventists are nervous on this issue. But if one is seeking the truth about reality one can’t wall it in or burn bridges of enquiry. Wes, perhaps the Hellenic maxim should have not so much: Know thyself, but rather Think for thyself. My park bench in Pugwash is a welcome one but does not feature ontological dividers. It is well designed for truth seekers.

Your agnostic friend
Ken