Re Ethan’s Quote “Dear Adventist High School student, Which of the 12 …

Comment on La Sierra University won’t neglect creation teaching, president, chairman vow by Ken.

Re Ethan’s Quote

“Dear Adventist High School student,

Which of the 12 disciples graduated from college or even the equivalent of such thing? What grade school did Ellen White graduate from? Since when do you need a college degree to do the Lord’s work?”

Dear Ethan

Does this beg the question as to whether the SDA needs schools at all? Isn’t this exactly the ignorance that Dr. Pitman is trying to combat, by demonstrating that there is a scientific basis for creationism that requires teaching? Or should the SDA abandon any pretense of teaching science at all, as you seem to suggest?

Regards
Ken

Ken Also Commented

La Sierra University won’t neglect creation teaching, president, chairman vow
Re Sean’s quote

“Empirically-blind faith is therefore based on emotion rather than an intelligent understanding or appreciation of the evidence. This is why those with blind faith find it extremely difficult to even consider the possibliity that they might be wrong in their beliefs or understanding of reality. ”

Out of the dark of mysticism and into the wispy dawn of empiricism. Through the clearing fog, the glass darkly, Mankind sees reality a bit more clearly.

Here here Sean.

Humbly
your agnostic friend
Ken


La Sierra University won’t neglect creation teaching, president, chairman vow
Dear Sean

You are on the right path my friend. Empiricism drives Man’s rational understanding of reality. You and I may disagree on the conclusions, but not on the methodology of empiricism. Science is a key instrument, not the only one, in that noble pursuit.

I want to thank Prof Kent for eloquently setting out the difference between the Historical Critical vs. Historical Grammatical, methods of SDA biblical interpretation. That helped me understand the SDA context of the interpretation of creation with a great deal more depth.

As an agnostic I am suspect of intellectual authority of any kind that precludes independent, critical thought. That is why I applaud the SDA challenging the tenets of evolution, especially Dr.Pitman trying to do so scientifically. Evolution is no sacred cow; I say that thinking it provides the best explanation/theory, to date, for the origins of life on earth.

While I now understand and respect the context for: “Thus saith the Lord” does that mean that one needs to suppress one’s critical, independent faculties to do so? In a nutshell is this now perhaps what the LSU apologetic is attempting to do? Is that not laudable?

As a secular person who has studied religion all his life, I have no problem whatsoever with the teaching of biblical creationism as a matter of faith. I like the fact that the SDA church has taken steps to empirically prove it through the GRI, Dr Pitman’s work, etc. That certainly made me think far more critically about the topic than if I just blithely dismissed biblical creation as a rehashed Sumerian legend. And, if I am truly open minded, I will leave myself open to being rationally persuaded that biblical creation is the most rational explanation for our origins. But it won’t be because “Anyone saith it is so”; it will be because to me it makes the most rational sense. Evolution is no sacred cow but freedom of mind surely is for all of us.

I greatly respect that many of you, most of you?, have been raised as devout Adventists being taught from the earliest years that biblical creation is the only acceptable explanation for Man’s origins. That is your right and privilege. What concerns me – I have pointed this out to Dr.Pitman on a number of occasions – is that if faith becomes a polemic or a prism to rationally inquire about reality, then objectivity suffers. Dr. Pitman has been very persuasive in arguing that all individual inquiry has some subjectivity and bias to it. On sober reflection I think he is right. But I think the collective, ongoing, objective beat of rational, scientific inquiry overcomes these individual roadblocks in time. The world is not flat and laws of gravity apply.

I am so glad to see Educate Truth active again! Good intelligent minds work here and I hope we are all making progress in a better understanding of the nature of reality. I know I am.

Thanks to all
your agnostic friend
Ken


La Sierra University won’t neglect creation teaching, president, chairman vow
Dear Sean

Your point is well taken

My father, who does not have a university education, is one of the most well read, knowledgeable men I ever have met. Yet he is not qualified to teach evolution or intelligent design, nor would I take a course from his in this regard.

I agree that it is wrong to label Mr Asscherick an imbecile, but does he have the academic competence to teach a science course on origins? Society, including the SDA schools, have academic teaching credentials for a reason. It provides a common denominator for competence and expertise in a given area of study. That was my point in my response to Ethan.

Perhaps then the question is whether the teaching of biology is God’s work?

Regards
your agnostic friend
Ken


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Hi Bob

I asked once before and I’ll ask again: what is your background and expertise in biology?

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Creeds and Fundamental Beliefs
Re: What every human being on the planet believes?

Empirically, as i don’t have blind faith I could know this, perhaps it could only be a divine being that could do so. 🙂

Always open to correction though to those that know the absolute truth,

I remain,
Your agnostic friend
Ken


A “Christian Agnostic”?
Re Bob’s Quote

“But we can “observe” that the making of complex systems (and books, and works of art and science) is done by “creators” every day – observable, repeatable, testable. A mechanism proven to work.”

Hi Bob

Thanks for your comments.

This may surprise you but I’m actually intrigued by the design argument. My Dad is a Deist although I’m not of that bent, at least not yet! The laws of nature, i.e. gravity, that even allow the universe to exist are pretty marvelous. Did they arise as a result of a random quantum fluctuation or was their Grand Designer behind it all. If so what is or was the nature of such designer based on what we empirically observe about our universe?

The problem I have with intelligent design within our universe and especially regarding life on earth is theodicy. I do understand how the concept of original biblical sin accounts for the loss of perfection, but I have a very tough time understanding why a God would cause such destruction of his creation based on the disobedience of the literal eating of an apple. I just can’t rationally fathom how the eventual and natural demise of our solar system can be based on Man’s fall. Empirically, through science we can now view the death, and birth, of stars. Was this all caused by eating forbidden fruit?

Thus one must ask: why would a good, compassionate God create a Universe, and sentient life, that suffers and dies? Age old problem, that in my estimation has been allegorically resolved through the Genesis narrative.

Let’s move on to evolution. Micro evolution does not seem to be a problem for anyone. Life does adapt to its environment through genetic change. In my mind the issue becomes what happens over billions of years. After considering everything I have read to date I cannot honestly see an overwhelming case for a young earth. Moreover I have not read or heard anything yet that such a view can be scientifically supported by anyone without a biblical creationist bias. Given enough time great change will occur as evidenced by the vast diversity of life spread over every niche of our planet. Were there kangaroos on the Ark, or did they evolve in an isolated part of the world from whence they could not spread?

I don’t think evolution is a fraud or a hoax. Too many educated people of faith believe and accept it for it to be an atheist conspiracy. Have their been mistakes made and will they continue to be made? Are there dishonest scientists? Certainly. They are fallible humans, just like you and I, after all. But the issue is what does the weight of all the multidisciplinary evidence indicate?

Hope that helps

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote

“Yes, I am suggesting that our scientists should also be theologians to some degree. I’m also suggesting that our theologians be scientists to some degree as well. There should be no distinct dividing line between the two disciplines…”

Hello Sean

First of all, thank you Holly for your comments. You have always treated me with civility and charity for which I am most grateful.

Secondly, on reflection, I do hope I was not strident or offensive in my recent remarks. I am a guest here and should behave with the utmost respect regarding my Adventist hosts. After all I was proposing the Chair of ID at an ‘Adventist’ institution! What gall and temerity from an agnostic!

However something Dr. Kime said struck a very strange chord in me: that a Chair in ID at Harvard would be a quantum leap ( forward – my edit) while such a Chair would be a step backward at LSU. I’ m very sorry Wes, but for me to honestly investigate reality such double standard is not acceptable.

I am sad today, because I think I’m coming to the end of my Adventist journey. I really did see ID as a sort of bridge between your faith and objective inquiry about a ‘Grand’ Design. (apologies Mr. Hawkings). Oh Wes , perhaps I am ontological Don Quixote after all, comically tilting towards immovable Adventist windmills. 🙁 .

However all is not forlorn because I’ve made excellent friends of the heart here. ;). I won’t forget you.

Good luck in your pursuit of God.

Goodbye
Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote

“Public association is one thing. Private association is another. While many do not feel at liberty to publicly associate themselves with our work here (for obvious reasons), most who still believe in SDA fundamentals (and who are aware of the longstanding situation at LSU and other places) feel that our work in providing enhanced transparency for what is being taught to our young people in our schools was/is necessary on some level.”

Hi Sean

The irony here is that those that are supporting institutional enhanced transparency are hiding behind cloaks of anonymity. That’s not how you, I, Wes, Bob Ryan, Wes, Bill Sorenson and many others here behave. Imagine if Jesus hid behind a cloak and didn’t proclaim his nature. What legacy of respect would he have left?

Conviction requires courage period.

Your agnostic friend
Ken