Re Ethan’s Quote “Dear Adventist High School student, Which of the 12 …

Comment on La Sierra University won’t neglect creation teaching, president, chairman vow by Ken.

Re Ethan’s Quote

“Dear Adventist High School student,

Which of the 12 disciples graduated from college or even the equivalent of such thing? What grade school did Ellen White graduate from? Since when do you need a college degree to do the Lord’s work?”

Dear Ethan

Does this beg the question as to whether the SDA needs schools at all? Isn’t this exactly the ignorance that Dr. Pitman is trying to combat, by demonstrating that there is a scientific basis for creationism that requires teaching? Or should the SDA abandon any pretense of teaching science at all, as you seem to suggest?

Regards
Ken

Ken Also Commented

La Sierra University won’t neglect creation teaching, president, chairman vow
Re Sean’s quote

“Empirically-blind faith is therefore based on emotion rather than an intelligent understanding or appreciation of the evidence. This is why those with blind faith find it extremely difficult to even consider the possibliity that they might be wrong in their beliefs or understanding of reality. ”

Out of the dark of mysticism and into the wispy dawn of empiricism. Through the clearing fog, the glass darkly, Mankind sees reality a bit more clearly.

Here here Sean.

Humbly
your agnostic friend
Ken


La Sierra University won’t neglect creation teaching, president, chairman vow
Dear Sean

Your point is well taken

My father, who does not have a university education, is one of the most well read, knowledgeable men I ever have met. Yet he is not qualified to teach evolution or intelligent design, nor would I take a course from his in this regard.

I agree that it is wrong to label Mr Asscherick an imbecile, but does he have the academic competence to teach a science course on origins? Society, including the SDA schools, have academic teaching credentials for a reason. It provides a common denominator for competence and expertise in a given area of study. That was my point in my response to Ethan.

Perhaps then the question is whether the teaching of biology is God’s work?

Regards
your agnostic friend
Ken


La Sierra University won’t neglect creation teaching, president, chairman vow
Dear Sean

You are on the right path my friend. Empiricism drives Man’s rational understanding of reality. You and I may disagree on the conclusions, but not on the methodology of empiricism. Science is a key instrument, not the only one, in that noble pursuit.

I want to thank Prof Kent for eloquently setting out the difference between the Historical Critical vs. Historical Grammatical, methods of SDA biblical interpretation. That helped me understand the SDA context of the interpretation of creation with a great deal more depth.

As an agnostic I am suspect of intellectual authority of any kind that precludes independent, critical thought. That is why I applaud the SDA challenging the tenets of evolution, especially Dr.Pitman trying to do so scientifically. Evolution is no sacred cow; I say that thinking it provides the best explanation/theory, to date, for the origins of life on earth.

While I now understand and respect the context for: “Thus saith the Lord” does that mean that one needs to suppress one’s critical, independent faculties to do so? In a nutshell is this now perhaps what the LSU apologetic is attempting to do? Is that not laudable?

As a secular person who has studied religion all his life, I have no problem whatsoever with the teaching of biblical creationism as a matter of faith. I like the fact that the SDA church has taken steps to empirically prove it through the GRI, Dr Pitman’s work, etc. That certainly made me think far more critically about the topic than if I just blithely dismissed biblical creation as a rehashed Sumerian legend. And, if I am truly open minded, I will leave myself open to being rationally persuaded that biblical creation is the most rational explanation for our origins. But it won’t be because “Anyone saith it is so”; it will be because to me it makes the most rational sense. Evolution is no sacred cow but freedom of mind surely is for all of us.

I greatly respect that many of you, most of you?, have been raised as devout Adventists being taught from the earliest years that biblical creation is the only acceptable explanation for Man’s origins. That is your right and privilege. What concerns me – I have pointed this out to Dr.Pitman on a number of occasions – is that if faith becomes a polemic or a prism to rationally inquire about reality, then objectivity suffers. Dr. Pitman has been very persuasive in arguing that all individual inquiry has some subjectivity and bias to it. On sober reflection I think he is right. But I think the collective, ongoing, objective beat of rational, scientific inquiry overcomes these individual roadblocks in time. The world is not flat and laws of gravity apply.

I am so glad to see Educate Truth active again! Good intelligent minds work here and I hope we are all making progress in a better understanding of the nature of reality. I know I am.

Thanks to all
your agnostic friend
Ken


Recent Comments by Ken

God and Granite Cubes
@ Sean

I enjoyed your article. As I’ve stated before, I think Intelligent Design is a more modern form of Deism and do not think it is irrational. However, as science on an ongoing basis shows what matters are explainable by cause and effect, less is attributable to conscious design. The question of course is what are the limits of science in this regard? For example, will it ever be able to explain First Cause/

Below is a more fulsome quote of Professor Townes, an self acknowledged Protestant Christian. Please note what he has to say about literal creation and evolution. Do you think he is being more reasonable than you on the nature of design?

“I do believe in both a creation and a continuous effect on this universe and our lives, that God has a continuing influence – certainly his laws guide how the universe was built. But the Bible’s description of creation occurring over a week’s time is just an analogy, as I see it. The Jews couldn’t know very much at that time about the lifetime of the universe or how old it was. They were visualizing it as best they could and I think they did remarkably well, but it’s just an analogy.

Should intelligent design be taught alongside Darwinian evolution in schools as religious legislators have decided in Pennsylvania and Kansas?

I think it’s very unfortunate that this kind of discussion has come up. People are misusing the term intelligent design to think that everything is frozen by that one act of creation and that there’s no evolution, no changes. It’s totally illogical in my view. Intelligent design, as one sees it from a scientific point of view, seems to be quite real. This is a very special universe: it’s remarkable that it came out just this way. If the laws of physics weren’t just the way they are, we couldn’t be here at all. The sun couldn’t be there, the laws of gravity and nuclear laws and magnetic theory, quantum mechanics, and so on have to be just the way they are for us to be here.
Charles Townes
‘Faith is necessary for the scientist even to get started, and deep faith is necessary for him to carry out his tougher tasks. Why? Because he must have confidence that there is order in the universe and that the human mind – in fact his own mind – has a good chance of understanding this order.’
-Charles Townes, writing in “The Convergence of Science and Religion,” IBM’s Think magazine, March-April 1966
Some scientists argue that “well, there’s an enormous number of universes and each one is a little different. This one just happened to turn out right.” Well, that’s a postulate, and it’s a pretty fantastic postulate – it assumes there really are an enormous number of universes and that the laws could be different for each of them. The other possibility is that ours was planned, and that’s why it has come out so specially. Now, that design could include evolution perfectly well. It’s very clear that there is evolution, and it’s important. Evolution is here, and intelligent design is here, and they’re both consistent.

They don’t have to negate each other, you’re saying. God could have created the universe, set the parameters for the laws of physics and chemistry and biology, and set the evolutionary process in motion, But that’s not what the Christian fundamentalists are arguing should be taught in Kansas.

People who want to exclude evolution on the basis of intelligent design, I guess they’re saying, “Everything is made at once and then nothing can change.” But there’s no reason the universe can’t allow for changes and plan for them, too. People who are anti-evolution are working very hard for some excuse to be against it. I think that whole argument is a stupid one. Maybe that’s a bad word to use in public, but it’s just a shame that the argument is coming up that way, because it’s very misleading. “


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote

“Yes, I am suggesting that our scientists should also be theologians to some degree. I’m also suggesting that our theologians be scientists to some degree as well. There should be no distinct dividing line between the two disciplines…”

Hello Sean

First of all, thank you Holly for your comments. You have always treated me with civility and charity for which I am most grateful.

Secondly, on reflection, I do hope I was not strident or offensive in my recent remarks. I am a guest here and should behave with the utmost respect regarding my Adventist hosts. After all I was proposing the Chair of ID at an ‘Adventist’ institution! What gall and temerity from an agnostic!

However something Dr. Kime said struck a very strange chord in me: that a Chair in ID at Harvard would be a quantum leap ( forward – my edit) while such a Chair would be a step backward at LSU. I’ m very sorry Wes, but for me to honestly investigate reality such double standard is not acceptable.

I am sad today, because I think I’m coming to the end of my Adventist journey. I really did see ID as a sort of bridge between your faith and objective inquiry about a ‘Grand’ Design. (apologies Mr. Hawkings). Oh Wes , perhaps I am ontological Don Quixote after all, comically tilting towards immovable Adventist windmills. 🙁 .

However all is not forlorn because I’ve made excellent friends of the heart here. ;). I won’t forget you.

Good luck in your pursuit of God.

Goodbye
Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Wes’s Quote

“. But for a Christian, a great devolution, a great recidivation, a tragic forfeiture, foreclosure, worse. If I were to use the vocabulary of some of our recent posters, I’d not put it as delicately.”

Hi Wes and Sean

I just read again portions on ID from Sean’s website Detecting Design. I am very confused by both of your responses. Why the heck is Sean promoting ID as a scientific theory if this is such a Christian retreat? Perhaps you two differ here? I apologize if I am missing the obvious but I see a tremendous disconnect between what Sean is saying about ID and what he is prepared to do to promote it within the subset of Adventist education.

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Sean’s Quote

“Public association is one thing. Private association is another. While many do not feel at liberty to publicly associate themselves with our work here (for obvious reasons), most who still believe in SDA fundamentals (and who are aware of the longstanding situation at LSU and other places) feel that our work in providing enhanced transparency for what is being taught to our young people in our schools was/is necessary on some level.”

Hi Sean

The irony here is that those that are supporting institutional enhanced transparency are hiding behind cloaks of anonymity. That’s not how you, I, Wes, Bob Ryan, Wes, Bill Sorenson and many others here behave. Imagine if Jesus hid behind a cloak and didn’t proclaim his nature. What legacy of respect would he have left?

Conviction requires courage period.

Your agnostic friend
Ken


Dr. Ariel Roth’s Creation Lectures for Teachers
Re Intelligent Design

Gentleman, thanks to all for your fulsome replies.

Yes Wes, I remember your cogent analysis of November 14/11. I appreciared it then and its reiteration now. indeed I was waiting to hear from others especially Sean whose site is named Detecting Design. And, here I agree with Bob, ID
does not necessarily rule out any particular design i. e. fiat
creation ot theistic evolution.

But quite frankly I am disaapointed with Sean’s response, not Sean himself for whom I have deep admiration, because I see this as a step backward. Why? Because if you burn the bridge between science and biblical faith it will not be science that suffers.

Ironically Sean makes many fine, cogent arguments for design in nature so I find his reluctance to promote it formally in Adventist education troubling. Respectfully, I don’t think serious enquiry about reality can creep around the periphery or sneak in through the back door. I’m afraid I see a double standard here.

Yes Wes, I understand why Adventists are nervous on this issue. But if one is seeking the truth about reality one can’t wall it in or burn bridges of enquiry. Wes, perhaps the Hellenic maxim should have not so much: Know thyself, but rather Think for thyself. My park bench in Pugwash is a welcome one but does not feature ontological dividers. It is well designed for truth seekers.

Your agnostic friend
Ken