In all my discussion I am limiting myself to our solar system. That is what we see more than anything else. These bodies are included in Genesis 1 in the creation.

The worlds that are seen came from nothing. That is good enough for me.

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Erik

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I agree with you, as I have pointed out before, that all of God’s creation has come from nothingness. However, I do not see any dates given in scripture for this. Heb. 11:3 is in the universal context. You wish to apply it to our global context. Can you, who are advocating “proper exegesis” to me, support this?

Sure. Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

The writer of Hebrews was talking of what we see. Where else do we see more clearly than this earth?

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Have I ever said that our earth never went through a period of nothingness? No. You pointed out Heb. 11:3. I pointed out that it is speaking in the context of all worlds created by God, and did not specify a time. You said you were only talking about our world. Perhaps so, but then use a different text.

I agree with you, as I have pointed out before, that all of God’s creation has come from nothingness. However, I do not see any dates given in scripture for this. Heb. 11:3 is in the universal context. You wish to apply it to our global context. Can you, who are advocating “proper exegesis” to me, support this?

Erik

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I am not just changing my tune. Go to this post and see what I said:
http://www.educatetruth.com/la-sierra-evidence/an-appeal-to-our-leadership/comment-page-3/#comment-10960

Note that the purpose behind the post must be considered. The first post was not to debate when or what but was just to point out useful things to consider in your analysis. But now you are stretching things beyond Scripture, so I am attempting to refute your strange conclusions.

Also, go to this one too:

Erik,

Gen 1:1 is a summary of the creation, but it is not ONLY that.

There must be a start too, and that you are overlooking. So Gen 1:1 is also the start.

1) God created the heavens and the earth. Observe: Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

2) In this day the foundations of the earth were made and then (~simultaneously) the depths (or deep) were created. This is possibly talking about waters.

Why I say is is because Heb 11:3 is telling us the things we see were not formed from things that appeared (or existed). God does not need pre-existing material to create.

Gen 1:1 is a statement that is a summary, a conclusion and a beginning. It is simple.

At no point in my arguments am I ever trying to discuss other parts of God’s creation – some obviously pre-existed our heavens and earth.

At no point am I ascribing a beginning to God (Father, Son, Spirit). The in the beginning in Gen 1:1 relate to OUR world.

No amount of dancing, blustering, twisting and turning can defeat two fundamental points that are very clear.

1) God created our worlds from nothing.
2) Proverbs 8:23-29 tell us that at some time when there was NO earth, there was NO deep, there was NO waters, nothing (in relation to our world).

Therefore, honesty and proper exegesis requires us to accept that in the beginning of our creation there was NOTHING.

The Holy Spirit brooding upon the face of the waters (vs 2) AFTER God placed it – waters – there (vs 1). Remember, 2 comes AFTER 1.

By the way, Ellen White used Psalm 104 in PP as creation text. Note the following:

Psalms 104:5-6 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

Sister White said that when the earth was created there were mountains – not like after the flood – but were still there.

“By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.” “For He spake, and it was;” “He commanded, and it stood fast.” Psalm 33:6, 9. He “laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever.” Psalm 104:5. {PP 44.1}

As the earth came forth from the hand of its Maker, it was exceedingly beautiful. Its surface was diversified with mountains, hills, and plains, interspersed with noble rivers and lovely lakes; but the hills and mountains were not abrupt and rugged, abounding in terrific steeps and frightful chasms, as they now do; the sharp, ragged edges of earth’s rocky framework were buried beneath the fruitful soil, which everywhere produced a luxuriant growth of verdure. There were no loathsome swamps or barren deserts. Graceful shrubs and delicate flowers greeted the eye at every turn. The heights were crowned with trees more majestic than any that now exist. The air, untainted by foul miasma, was clear and healthful. The entire landscape outvied in beauty the decorated grounds of the proudest palace. The angelic host viewed the scene with delight, and rejoiced at the wonderful works of God. {PP 44.2}

I will close with this thought. None of us was there and we should not be too presumptuous about it, either. All we should do is to compare Scripture with Scripture and try not to force in the Scripture what is not written.

Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

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Regarding the “gap” you mentioned, and the water vs. land concepts, there is an interesting statement by Mrs. White where she indicates both forms were present when God started His work of Creation.

In the work of creation, when the dawn of the first day broke, and the heavens and the earth, by the call of infinite power, came out of darkness; responsive to the rising light, “the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.” {ST, January 8, 1880 par. 1}

So not only the water was present in that darkness, but apparently there was also the substance of both heaven and earth. As it puts it in Genesis 1:2, however, these had not yet been formed (without form). They are not formed until God works upon them in Days 2 and 3.

Certainly, however, any truly Bible-based perspective would be accepted at LSU (apart from twisting it into error). But to cast out whole portions of Scripture and of Ellen White as being irrelevant, inaccurate, or simply a fiction with a nice moral is…traitorous.

Erik

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@Bravus:

(raises head above battlements for a fraction of a second to point out that a majority of the recent creationists who have posted on this site disagree with you on this point)

1. In Gen 1:1-1:2 there is the possibility of a gap since the story starts with water and the Holy Spirit after stating that God is the Creator of all. That water “could” be water on top of a geothermally active planet or it could simply be a hydrogen-oxygen cloud with no rocks at all in the mix.

(Hint: God can do his own nucleosynthesis thank you )

Either way – it does not solve the problem of old-life evolutionism being taught at LSU.

2. Where everyone is in agrement is on the events that happen inside the 6 “evening and mornings” and the fact that “evening and morning” is a day just like the Bible says. Thus the “very details” most objectionable to the story of evolutionism are the very details we all agree upon.

There is no form of evolutionism that can allow for all life on earth, the atmosphere, dry land and the Sun and Moon to all come into being in a literal 7 day week.

3. IF The only thing going on at LSU was a debate over “the water” of Genesis 1:2 – we would not even have this web site.

in Christ,

Bob

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In your desperation to hold an untenable tradition, you have resorted to changing your own explanations, and to apparently contradicting yourself. Would it not be easier to let go of your former views, and take another look at scripture for the beauty you might find in a new perspective?

[Jonathan Smith, March 30, 2010] Erik,

I would like to point out to you that the writers of the Bible like to state the conclusion first and then fill in the details later. So please do not make your analyses without noting that fact.

So Genesis 1:1 is a statement of completion and after the details are filled in.

Compare your statement above, saying Genesis 1:1 was the “conclusion” and “statement of completion” with your statement below.

[Jonathan Smith, April 1, 2010] Your problem is that you are trying to dishonestly start creation week in Gen 1:3. You want to impose a land mass and water that God depended on or put down before (for what purpose????)

You want to confine Gen 1:1 to a summary alone. That is selective and dishonest interpretation.

Gen 1:1 tells the start of creation week.

Was it dishonest for you to state that Genesis 1:1 was a summary when you wanted to counter my questions regarding it potentially having a double meaning, and then to now state that it was NOT just a summary when you see that you need it to state otherwise?

In the course of this discussion, you were the first to say Genesis 1:1 was a summary. I agreed. David Read agreed. Now you are the first to claim it was not just a summary.

So, perhaps we need to explore this a bit more, since to me it appears you contradict yourself. Maybe I have not understood. Would you say that Genesis 1:1-3 are all part of the first day of Creation? If so, what do you understand Mrs. White to be saying in the following:

The same Voice that at the beginning said, “Let there be light,” in these last days declares that a knowledge of God’s Word shall not be confined merely to a few places. {PM 192.3}

In the manifestation of God to His people, light had ever been a symbol of His presence. At the creative word in the beginning, light had shone out of darkness. {DA 464.2}

Jonathan, the following statement has special relevance to our discussion here, as Mrs. White addresses Genesis 1:2 in the light of the Holy Spirit and the contrast with modern science.

Only by the aid of that Spirit who in the beginning “was brooding upon the face of the waters;” of that Word by whom “all things were made;” of that “true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world” (Genesis 1:2, R.V., margin; John 1:3, 9), can the testimony of science be rightly interpreted. Only by their guidance can its deepest truths be discerned. Only under the direction of the Omniscient One shall we, in the study of His works, be enabled to think His thoughts after Him. {CT 530.2}

The Holy Spirit was “brooding upon the face of the waters” “in the beginning.” The Holy Spirit, being God, has no beginning. This is speaking of the beginning of earth, not of the Holy Spirit. But there were waters already there at that beginning. Mrs. White further states that only in this light of the Spirit can we properly understand science.

That is what we need today. We need to come to a proper understanding of where science and the Bible meet in agreement. If science misinterprets the facts, we can never have agreement. Conversely if theologians misinterpret the Bible we will also not have agreement. It is important that BOTH sides have open minds to God’s truth.

Erik

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I am not in any discussion about other worlds. I am talking about earth and the heavens mentioned in Genesis 1.

Hebrews 11:3 tells us – which you apparently cannot see – that whatever we see came from nothing. You cannot then say there was an earth without form and a deep and THEN God started His creation.

God started His creation FROM NOTHING. I defy you to prove that God created an earth and some deep and then left it for some indeterminately long period of time and THEN created the heavens and the earth in SIX days.

That is distorting the Scripture. God created the world approximately 6,000 years ago (I am not speaking of the entire universe in this time frame) from nothing. So don’t you add something before His creation. Please do not, as you have been trying, to get me saying something I have never said.

The Proverbs text, if you have a concordance, show the same Hebrew words for earth, deep or depths, as Genesis 1.

That Proverbs text, speaking about Christ, is declaring that Christ pre-existed everything. Sure the text can be taken back umpteen trillions of years ago. But you miss the point. There is a reference to the creation of THIS EARTH. Please look again.

Prov 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was .
Prov 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Prov 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Prov 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Prov 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Prov 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

This passage is a very useful passage on the creation of the earth, as it tells what existed before creation week.

The Hebrew word for depths (Prov 8:24) from Strong’s concordance; code H8415 is the same Hebrew word for deep in Gen 1:2.

teh-home’, teh-home’
(Usually feminine) from H1949; an abyss (as a surging mass of water), especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water supply): – deep (place), depth. Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

The Hebrew word for earth in Gen 1:1, 2, 10 H776 is the same in Prov 8:23, 26

‘erets or eh’-rets
From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): – X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.
Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

What is Proverbs 8:23-29 saying?

There was a time when there was NO earth, NO depths (deep), NO fountains of water. That is the point.

Now I challenge you to find anywhere in the Bible where any depths or deep or formless, void earth existed before creation week.

Your problem is that you are trying to dishonestly start creation week in Gen 1:3. You want to impose a land mass and water that God depended on or put down before (for what purpose????)

You want to confine Gen 1:1 to a summary alone. That is selective and dishonest interpretation.

Gen 1:1 tells the start of creation week.

Action 1. Create an earth without form and void and immersed in a deep (waters).
Action 2. Call for light
Action 3. Vertically divide the waters by the firmament (heavens)
Action 4. Horizontally divide the waters by the land

And so on

The Work of Creation

The work of creation can never be explained by science. What science can explain the mystery of life? {8T 258.3}

The theory that God did not create matter when He brought the world into existence is without foundation. In the formation of our world, God was not indebted to pre-existing matter. On the contrary, all things, material or spiritual, stood up before the Lord Jehovah at His voice and were created for His own purpose. The heavens and all the host of them, the earth and all things therein, are not only the work of His hand; they came into existence by the breath of His mouth. {8T 258.4}

“Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” Hebrews 11:3.

“By the word of the Lord were the heavens made;
And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. . . .
He spake, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.”
Psalm 33:6-9. {8T 259.1}

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