BobRyan: If in the end – the goal is to …

Comment on An appeal to our leadership by Christiane Marshall.

BobRyan: If in the end – the goal is to present ” a story” about super powers fighting for countrol in our area of the Universe, or our area of the Galaxy (call it what you will) then an evolutionist scenario not very unlike the 2010 and 2001 space Oddessy film – is an example of combining evolutionism with some kind of galaxy agenda with conflict between advanced races.

Bob,Very interesting! Thanks for your thoughts. I suppose it could go in many different directions. We can only wonder what shape it will take. Either scenario might get the atheists onboard I suppose.

Christiane Marshall Also Commented

An appeal to our leadership

Doug Carlson: Christiane, yes, the 144,000 follow Jesus and do and believe as He did so they know Him very well. And for this discussion, Jesus believed in the literal week of creation and referred to it as a real historic event. The 144,000 will, too.

I believe you’re right. By that time, for sure! I even think there’s that there’s a good possibility that evolution won’t be an issue at all! Since the last deception will be religious, there’s a possibility in my mind that some of the things we are arguing about now will be fully accepted by the ‘christians’ who will persecute.

The end time ‘turning back to God’ trend might include some scientific discoveries that will prove evolution wrong beyond the shadow of a doubt. And who knows, maybe the ark will be discovered as well as other solid proofs of a world-wide flood.

Of course this is just my own theory!

It’s the “weightier matters” that will be neglected by the others (not the144,000)! Unfortunately, they will not know Jesus. I guess you might say the last will be a ‘one issue’ controversy!


An appeal to our leadership

Doug Carlson: But these are all perhaps meaningless generalities and mean nothing. I guess my real point is that we have not heeded John’s words in 1 John 2 and have not only come to embrace the world, but love it far too dearly and don’t even see we have been tainted with the condition.

Hi Doug, You make an interesting point. We’re just all a mess, aren’t we? I remember once sitting at a table in my home with other believers discussing pets. I had been telling people we had no pets–and I really thought I was telling the truth. (We did not have a pet for a while, but had recently adopted a cat for my little ones.) To this day I have no idea why I was so blind! Except maybe My ‘status’ had changed, but I had not ‘updated’ the ‘file!’

So here I am at my table and the discussion leads me to make this statement again. However, my cat was in my lap and I was petting her while I made the statement! I stopped and realized that I did indeed have a pet! Of course I exclaimed something about how silly I had been to have been making that statement!

As adults, we don’t often update our files. As we were growing up, we sort of created a structure of how we think, who we are, etc. and we don’t feel the need to mess with it. As we change our beliefs, we have to be intentional in updating! You do make an interesting point how our beliefs and practices don’t always mesh. But it isn’t just ‘them over there.’ It’s ME too!

Hopefully we are all allowing the Holy Spirit to bring our own minds into a unity. We can examine our own hearts and minds with the searchlight of God. How can we as believers be unified when our own minds are all a jumble?

Doug Carlson: My suggestion is that we find the definition of the 144,000 in the book of Revelation and begin to study and live their characteristics.

I don’t mean to be contrary, but I think we probably should study and spend time with Jesus. The 144,000 get to be that way because ‘they’ have done just that! Hopefully ‘they’ are ‘us!’


An appeal to our leadership

Doug Carlson: Its like going to some of our churches on Sabbath morning and looking at all the jewelry and wondering what we really believe any more.

Doug, Just thought I’d make an observation here. I have noticed that there is especially jewelry in our churches when the membership is doing its job–evangelising!

The important thing is how we treat those wearing the jewelry, especially if we are a visitor and know nothing about the situation. It might be better to say that there is a belief among some Adventists that wearing jewelry is okay, rather than reference seeing jewelry in churches. Praise God if non-Adventists are attending and hearing the message!


Recent Comments by Christiane Marshall

GC Votes to Revise SDA Fundamental #6 on Creation
@Sean Pitman:

We may just be arguing apples and apples. I am certainly not advocating ‘blind faith’ as you have had cause to address frequently on this sight. I am arguing against an over-dependence on extra-biblical evidence for our faith walk.

How do you know that the Bible is really the Word of God, while other religious texts, like the Book of Mormon, is not? How do you tell the difference? My LDS friends tell me that God gives them a warm feeling deep within themselves when they see or hear the truth. That is how they know that the Book of Mormon is from God. For me, I don’t find this approach very helpful when it comes to establishing a solid hope or confidence in the Bible as God’s word.

I actually had the opportunity to study many of the world’s so-called sacred texts before accepting the Bible as the true one. The Bible’s internal testimony coupled with the convicting witness of the Holy Spirit is what finally tipped the scales for me. Yes, I did do a bit of reading about historical and archeological and logical reasons why this testimony was credible – but it was the testimony of the Bible itself (coupled with the personal witness and testimony of Christians and the witness of the Holy Spirit) that helped me experience a saving faith. Most people are not as analytical as you or I. Most read the Bible and are convicted that it is true – without undertaking an extensive research project into the scientific reasons that may be so. Poor uneducated people in the third world experience a more vital faith than you or I, without such in-depth confirmatory knowledge. Doug Batchelor did not have a computer and a library full of data to assist him in that cave outside of Palm Springs – only the Bible! Most people who are converted to Christ testify that it was through influence of friends who witnessed to them about their relationship with Christ (a very subjective thing scientifically) – not through a rigorous scientific examination of the empirical data.

Once again, most people have no empirical evidence that the resurrection took place – they have only the testimony of those who witnessed that it took place. Yes, there are logical inferences that confirm that it must have taken place. But when you say empirical I’m assuming you are saying something that can be observed in present time reality and scientifically tested.

“Empirical evidence is a fancy way of describing facts that can be experienced and tested only through the senses.”
Faith has to do with learning to trust our spiritual senses above our physical ones. How else would you explain the numerous persons who testify that they were ‘deeply impressed’ to take a certain path when all the empirical data seemed to say otherwise – later to find out that their life depended on this ‘spiritual sense’ choice! Of course I’m not arguing for pentecostalism here, but you get the idea.

Did the faith of Jesus’ disciples increase or decrease after they saw Him resurrected from the grave?

Of course it was strengthened. Christ said however that it was a more blessed experience to believe without such empirical experience. What was He saying? I think He was saying that it is more blessed to take God at His Word than to demand or depend upon empirical evidence. The story of Gideon is a powerful testimony to this principle.

Victor


“Don’t go backwards to interpret Genesis as allegorical or symbolic”

Victor,Sometimes it’s appropriate to hit-the-nail on the head.Take for example Jesus’ statement to the Samaritan woman, “Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.”That might seem inappropriately direct, but it wasn’t.It was just what she needed.The scattered servants of Christ needed to hear the president of the world church express a clear understanding of where the church needs to go.And my own experience with non-Christians is that they respond much more vigorously and appreciatively to a meaningful presentation of the Bible than they do to a generalistic and generic appeal to their feelings.I’m sure you aren’t advocating a meaningless presentation, but I’m all for exactly the type of message President Wilson gave.I suspect those outside the church who care enough to listen to his message appreciate the frankness with which this leader expressed the direction he intends to go.I think many of them know he wasn’t targeting them – he was talking to us.  

Robert, I agree with you AND with Victor. I don’t really know what the answer is. In the information age, everything has changed. We have to rethink a lot about how we do things. We want to have a private evangelistic series and present truths by presenting the building blocks first, and building understanding before presenting the “more difficult aspects.” But how can we now? The last meetings we held, people went home and googled our personal names as well as doctrinal topics.

Sure we want a clear and meaningful message, but we want to protect those who are not ready to receive all of the truth at this time. We don’t want to push them away. It isn’t that we are afraid of offending them personally. It’s that we don’t want walls to go up so that we can’t reach out to them successfully.

I don’t know what the answer is. Even this forum is disturbing when our members have out and out conflicts, especially when behavior is not becoming of a Christian. It’s available for the whole world to see!

What it comes down to is things are different now. We need to approach everything differently. Otherwise, evangelistic interests will begin to think of us as the religious “Amway” brigade and lock their doors before we go up the steps.

The increase of knowledge and the rapid availability of it has changed our landscape. Christiane


“Don’t go backwards to interpret Genesis as allegorical or symbolic”

Did Wilson explain how SDA members can actually hold our leaders accountable?We have many leaders out here in the Pacific Union Conference who have not been accountable and still aren’t, but what can ordinary “Joe and Jill Schmo” church members do?  

I wondered the same thing. I just realized this year that I really don’t know enough about how our church works and how changes are made. It’s my intention to study this out. Of course Biblical principles and a Christlike attitude must be followed (Matthew 18, and Proverbs 17:9–“He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth very friends”). Biblical principles and Christlike attitude first, church policy second.

Christiane


Michigan Conference takes substantial action in LSU conflict
I hope more will follow, and will do so prayerfully.


EducateTruth.com promoted on 3ABN
A classic case which should cause any Adventist to stop in their tracks when judging motive or destiny is the following one:

“If William Miller could have seen the light of the third message, many things which looked dark and mysterious to him would have been explained. But his brethren professed so deep love and interest for him, that he thought he could not tear away from them. His heart would incline toward the truth, and then he looked at his brethren; they opposed it. Could he tear away from those who had stood side by side with him in proclaiming the coming of Jesus? He thought they surely would not lead him astray.
God suffered him to fall under the power of Satan, the dominion of death, and hid him in the grave from those who were constantly drawing him from the truth. Moses erred as he was about to enter the Promised Land. So also, I saw that William Miller erred as he was soon to enter the heavenly Canaan, in suffering his influence to go against the truth. Others led him to this; others must account for it. But angels watch the precious dust of this servant of God, and he will come forth at the sound of the last trump.” – EW 258