Happy Sabbath everyone. I appreciate the work of the …

Comment on The Rise of Theistic Evolutionism – The Salvation of Christianity? by Charles.

Happy Sabbath everyone. I appreciate the work of the builders of this forum.

Today, someone pointed me toward some quite profound guidance in the topic of the forum. I don’t know what the limitations are on size but will attempt to paste a portion of the text here. For anyone who wants to read it, it is written by EGW – with whom God entrusted with a great deal of his messages for this church. It is found in the “Testamonies” Vol 6, starting around page 141 and forward. Her words are plain and clear. Our institutions may reject them at their peril, but the meanings are clear and unmistakable.

– BEGIN PASTE –

We need now to begin over again. Reforms must be entered into with heart and soul and will. Errors may be hoary with age; but age does not make error truth, nor truth error. Altogether too long have the old customs and habits been followed. The Lord would now have every idea that is false put away from teachers and students. We are not at liberty to teach that which shall meet the world’s standard or the standard of the church, simply because it is the custom to do so. The lessons which Christ taught are to be the standard. That which the Lord has spoken concerning the instruction to be given in our schools is to be strictly regarded; for if there is not in some respects an education of an altogether different character from that which has been carried on in some of our schools, we need not have gone to the expense of purchasing lands and erecting school buildings. {6T 142.1}
Testimonies for the Church Volume 6, p. 142.2 (EGW)
Some will urge that if religious teaching is to be made prominent our schools will become unpopular; that those who are not of our faith will not patronize them. Very well; then let them go to other schools, where they will find a system of education that suits their taste. It is Satan’s 143purpose by these considerations to prevent the attainment of the object for which our schools were established. Hindered by his devices, the managers reason after the manner of the world and copy its plans and imitate its customs. Many have so far shown their lack of wisdom from above as to join with the enemies of God and the truth in providing worldly entertainments for the students. In doing this they bring upon themselves the frown of God, for they mislead the youth and do a work for Satan. This work, with all its results, they must meet at the bar of God. {6T 142.2}
Testimonies for the Church Volume 6, p. 143.1 (EGW)
Those who pursue such a course show that they cannot be trusted. After the evil has been done, they may confess their error; but can they undo the influence they have exerted? Will the “well done” be spoken to those who have been false to their trust? These unfaithful workmen have not built upon the eternal Rock, and their foundation will prove to be sliding sand. When the Lord requires us to be distinct and peculiar, how can we crave popularity or seek to imitate the customs and practices of the world? “Know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” James 4:4. {6T 143.1}
Testimonies for the Church Volume 6, p. 143.2 (EGW)
To lower the standard in order to secure popularity and an increase of numbers, and then to make this increase a cause of rejoicing, shows great blindness. If numbers were an evidence of success, Satan might claim the pre-eminence; for in this world his followers are largely in the majority. It is the degree of moral power pervading a school that is a test of its prosperity. It is the virtue, intelligence, and piety of the people composing our schools, not their numbers, that should be a source of joy and thankfulness. Then shall our schools become converted to the world and follow its customs and fashions? “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye 144… be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” Romans 12:1, 2. {6T 143.2}
Testimonies for the Church Volume 6, p. 144.1 (EGW)
Men will employ every means to make less prominent the difference between Seventh-day Adventists and observers of the first day of the week. A company was presented before me under the name of Seventh-day Adventists, who were advising that the banner, or sign, which makes us a distinct people should not be held out so strikingly; for they claimed that this was not the best policy in order to secure success to our institutions. But this is not a time to haul down our colors, to be ashamed of our faith. This distinctive banner, described in the words, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus,” is to be borne through the world to the close of probation. While efforts should be increased to advance in different localities, there must be no cloaking of our faith to secure patronage. Truth must come to souls ready to perish; and if it is in any way hidden, God is dishonored, and the blood of souls will be upon our garments. {6T 144.1}
Testimonies for the Church Volume 6, p. 144.2 (EGW)
Just as long as those in connection with our institutions walk humbly with God, heavenly intelligences will co-operate with them; but let all bear in mind the fact that God has said: “Them that honor Me I will honor.” 1 Samuel 2:30. Never for one moment should the impression be given to anyone that it would be for his profit to hide his faith and doctrines from the unbelieving people of the world, fearing that he may not be so highly esteemed if his principles are known. Christ requires from all His followers open, manly confession of faith. Each must take his position and be what God designed he should be, a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men. The whole 145universe is looking with inexpressible interest to see the closing work of the great controversy between Christ and Satan. Every Christian is to be a light, not hid under a bushel or under a bed, but put on a candlestick, that light may be given to all who are in the house. Never, from cowardice or worldly policy, let the truth of God be placed in the background. {6T 144.2}
Testimonies for the Church Volume 6, p. 145.1 (EGW)
Though in many respects our institutions of learning have swung into worldly conformity, though step by step they have advanced toward the world, they are prisoners of hope. Fate has not so woven its meshes about their workings that they need to remain helpless and in uncertainty. If they will listen to His voice and follow in His ways, God will correct and enlighten them, and bring them back to their upright position of distinction from the world. When the advantage of working upon Christian principles is discerned, when self is hid in Christ, much greater progress will be made; for each worker will feel his own human weakness; he will supplicate for the wisdom and grace of God, and will receive the divine help that is pledged for every emergency. {6T 145.1}
Testimonies for the Church Volume 6, p. 145.2 (EGW)
Opposing circumstances should create a firm determination to overcome them. One barrier broken down will give greater ability and courage to go forward. Press in the right direction, and make a change, solidly, intelligently. Then circumstances will be your helpers and not your hindrances. Make a beginning. The oak is in the acorn. {6T 145.2}

Charles Also Commented

The Rise of Theistic Evolutionism – The Salvation of Christianity?
@Ken:

If the flood happened 4300 years ago and IF an angel had instantly taken EGW 4300 “light years” from earth and IF she were then given the ability to view that stream of light coming from earth in greater detail than would seem possible to us: Would she then be witnessing it for herself? Or would you feel that she was watching the equivalent of a recording?

“A ridiculous idea”, I can almost hear your thoughts saying.

We cannot begin to fathom God’s ways. We live our lives with all sorts of measurables. God’s wisdom, knowledge, power, presence, ability – are all without limit. Neither is He constrained by time – as we are. How does He do it? It is not a valid question and I will not ask it- or try to answer it. That is where faith must triumph over “enquiring minds” that “want to know”. God told Moses, I AM the “I AM”. That was for a reason. Not “I was” or “I will be”… but I AM. It a statement about God that we cannot comprehend. Nor should we try.

He knows the end from the beginning. That was demonstrated in a small way when Jesus (Who is God – the Creator!) told Peter, “tonight, you will deny me three times…” Here is the exchange:

Matt 26
31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.

33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.

34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

35 Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.

Then later…

73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.

74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Some who come to understand the power of God revealed by this ability to know what WILL happen (in detail) will insist on trying to have a human comprehension of this power of God. Human reasoning applied in this direction can cause one to believe that we are all just living out a recording – or the doctrine of “predestination”. (“what is to be, will be”). But that is wrong too. We each have a choice to make and are guided by our own power of choice. That fact is not changed by the fact that God knows what our choice is before we do. (as demonstrated in Peter’s experience above)

It will probably be one of the last accusations hurled by Satan toward God with shaking fists just prior to his final destruction: “why did You make me this way?…”

God knows all – beginning to end – before and after it happens. He has a way of keeping a very accurate record of all that has happened. His knowledge in this regard should not be confused with control. Our choice is our own to make, even though He knows what that choice is before we do. By definition, “LOVE” involves choice. What do we have that God desires above all else? And what do we have that God does NOT have the ability to take? It is our LOVE. The Creator of the universe cannot compel love. It must be willingly given by us to Him. That is why we have to go through this whole 6000 year demonstration of the result of disobedience to the perfect law of God. It is why God Himself made of Himself, the form of man – His creation – and came to die, thus establishing the importance of the law.

All of this has its basis in LOVE. Even the need to be in perfect obedience to our Creator is established in love. When it is all over, the universe (including other worlds with intelligent beings) will know that God gives His law BECAUSE He LOVES us, not to be a controller.

====================================

Soooo, what was EGW experiencing in a “vision”? I suspect that it seemed very real to Her. That is because I have read the descriptions. She was physically in the room with others sometimes when she had visions. Yet, clearly she felt that she had visited whatever and whereever she saw. Did God actually somehow move her through time (forward or backward) so that she was really there? Or did God re-create an indistinguishable reality for Her so that she only thought she was experiencing Heaven, etc? Just don’t ask the question. There is no answer for us to know about that. Just like everything else we talk about on this board, we live in greatly limited understanding of what really constitutes reality. Our focus should be upon that which our God has told us to focus, “Study to show thyself, approved unto God…” and “In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and HE WILL DIRECT THY PATHS…”

There is no substitute for FAITH in having a relationship with God.

Good to see you here again, my “agnostic friend”. Did you read the chapter that you promised to read?

Happy Sabbath, everyone.


The Rise of Theistic Evolutionism – The Salvation of Christianity?
@George Tichy:

John 20

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


Recent Comments by Charles

La Sierra Univeristy Fires Dr. Lee Greer; Signs anti-Creation Bond
I read something today that seems relevant to these discussions. I am incredulous that we should be having a discussion within the SDA movment about evolution as having a role in our origions.

But teaching evolution as truth is not the only inroad that Satan has made into our church. In fact, there is little area to our core beliefs that has not been compromised.

Read what Ellen White wrote in GC 509: “Conformity to worldly customs converts the church to the world; it never converts the world to Christ. Familiarity with sin will inevitably cause it to appear less repulsive.”

Jesus is coming soon. Not only is there a great work to be done in taking the 3 angels messages to the world; there is a great preparation to be worked within each of our hearts individually.


La Sierra Univeristy Fires Dr. Lee Greer; Signs anti-Creation Bond
To love the historic truths embraced by the SDA church and to defend them is not “hate”.


The End of “Junk DNA”?
I have studied only elementary courses in science and thus much of what I read in the discussions on this thread are a bit over my head.

Still, I think I have come common sense and that is the tool that I have for drawing the conclusions that I hold.

The Bible describes a 2000 year old event in which the God/human man we know as “Jesus” raised Lazarus from the dead. The event, as described, set a scenario in which Lazarus clearly was dead and his body decomposing. Jesus, in a miraculous way, put “LIFE” back into that decomposing body.

Now either that account is a true event, or it is not. What do you choose to believe? Where is the empirical evidence that this could happen? If you believe the account is true, how do your scientific ideas reconcile to the story?

You can study the building blocks of living creatures / plants and observe much of how life is operating. But without that operational essence that is “LIFE”, those building blocks do not exist.

So Mr “Scientist”, please show me first how to take the elements in their raw forms and put LIFE into them. Then I can believe that you have an understanding of our origins. You are looking at living forms (dead or alive) and drawing conclusions about your observations without explaining the most fundamental cause of it all: How did it get started?

Please don’t make a claim: Demonstrate it. If you understand how it was done, show me. I will make the question even more simple: “What is life?”

“I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” John 10:10

“…should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

Now if you want to tell me that “God” was some brilliant scientist from another planet who created our beginnings in a laboratory, I will point back to the demonstration by Jesus of the raising of a dead man (Lazarus) after three days of decomposition. Jesus simply called him back to life. There was a reason that Jesus did this and the account of it in scripture makes that reason clear.

I choose to believe that most of our “reality” (including “life”) is beyond our comprehension. There is much about reality that God has reserved to Himself. If you think you can explain it, then you are buying into the lie told by the serpent, “you will become as God…”

Use the intelligence that God has given you to acknowledge your limitations and His role in our existence. Accept by FAITH those things that you cannot understand.

We have been given a few decades of life to live in the world we know and understand today. Empirical evidence available to us would suggest that when we die, that is the sum total and end of it. Of the billions of humans on earth, where is a person among us who has been risen from the dead?

If you have a hope that there is something beyond your death, then you must shed the notion that you can explain our origins as anything besides an unexplainable mystery that God does not share; except for the account of it that He left to us by His servant, Moses.

I choose to accept my limitations and I place my trust and faith in the word that God has left to us, to help us understand how we got here, why we are here, and how it all ends.

“Even so, come Lord Jesus.”


The End of “Junk DNA”?
@pauluc:

So do I understand correctly that your “faith” is subject to your scientific provabilities?

You have not yet addressed what I asked about demonstrating from whence comes “life”? Do you believe that life could exist apart from a miracle working God? Do you believe in miracles? Or do you believe that God is just a very brilliant scientist or magician? OR… is it all just a hoax to persuade us to (whatever)…

At what point do we acknowledge our limitations and that our observations can deceive us?

For what reason was the SDA church founded? Is that reason relative to the reason for its continued existence today?

The name of the church was carefully chosen to reflect the reason for its existence. The “Seventh-Day” refers to the holiness of the the seventh day of the week – in memorial of the literal seven day creation week. The “Adventist” part of the name proclaims that we believe that Jesus is coming again very soon in a very miraculous, splendid, and un-scientific way. BUT, the reason for the existence of this church is the proclamation of these things we believe to be true. It’s not just a club of folks who hold these “beliefs” – although it could sometime seem that way.

No, the seven days of creation were not vast periods of evolutionary development and the clouds of Heaven are not going to be space ships. But in all honesty, from viewing what you write, I would not know what to expect that you believe, relative to our existence and the advent of Jesus in the near future.

I speak in respect to you, with honesty.

I see truth, not as progressive, but absolute. Our perceptions about truth can be progressive or regressive.

Prov 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but…..

Do you believe what you observe? Or do you believe the record that was provided by the Creator?

You claim to be a Seventh-Day Adventist, it seems. I wonder, just what is it about the SDA faith (it seems inapproprate to me to label it as a “tradition”) that, for you, distinguishes it from other “religions”? What is the compelling doctrine or belief that drives you to choose this faith over the abundance of others that are in the world?

Again, with all due respect, I honestly wonder.


An apology to PUC
So far the only substantive responses by PUC defenders have been empty sarcasm and ridicule. Unfortunately, 18-year-old students eat that sort of thing up and follow anyone who has mastered tactics that mirror their favorite media characters. Educate Truth isn’t going after anyone. It is simply laying out the evidence and presentations for all to see and assess for themselves. Educate Truth doesn’t have to point out the dishonesty and the underlying problem that balanced views in science are not being respectfully presented on Adventist college campuses.