Ken, To answer your question about how to determine which beliefs

Comment on The Rise of Theistic Evolutionism – The Salvation of Christianity? by Wendell.

Ken,

To answer your question about how to determine which beliefs are valid and who God spoke to is difficult to do in just a few paragraphs. But I’ll try.

First, God is running a government, the territory fo which encompases at least the whole universe – and more if there are other universes out there that God has made.

Second, like any government, it expects its citizens to respect certain rules and regulations. That is a given for any government. After all, if you were to move to, say, Italy, and take up Italian citizenship, I should think that you would want to know something about the laws they have so that you can be aware and not end up in jail because you did not know about some law or regulation. The same is true of God’s government. There are certain laws and regulation that its citizens are expected to know and obey.

Third, according to the Bible, there is a rogue element in the universe, led by one called Satan, which happens to have claimed this world as its home turf. This power also has a goverment. It too has rules and regulations, the most important being that you will not obey God’s rules and regulations, but it only need be just one of God’s rules broken to qualify. It turns out that ALL of us have broken at least one of God’s rules, so we ALL qualify to be citizens of this rogue kingdom here on earth.

Fourth, God has made arrangements whereby we may become citizens of his government and subject to his rules and regulations instead of being citizens of Satan’s kingdom and subject to his rules. It is a long and complicated plan called the plan of salvation, and everyone on earth is qualified to apply, except for Satan an his angels.

Fifth, according to the Bible in Genesis, man became subject to the rogue kingdom because he failed to believe God and to trust him, so in order to become a citizen of God’s kingdom, one has to learn to believe God and trust him. That is a fundamental requirement and not easy for anyone to do, but without doing so, one cannot obtain permanent citizenship in the government of God when Jesus comes again.

Now, what does all of this have to do with your question? Well, it boils down to this. God said in Isaiah 8:20 that “To the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them.” The principle being laid down here is that what God has said before will not be contradicted by another statement by God later. But if someone comes along and claims that God spoke to them and said something that clearly contradicts what God said before concerning a rule or regulation that is not temporary in nature, then we are not to believe them and are not to believe that God spoke to them. Their statements make God into a liar one way or another. The reason is that either God lied when he first spoke concering this particular thing or he lied later when he spoke to the second person concerning it.

For an example, in Genesis we learn that God set aside the seventh day of the week for a rest day for man. He rested on it and made that day holy for man, meaning it is set aside for time with God. Later he directly spelled it out in the 4th commandment of Exodus 20. This was originally given to all men. But centuries later, along came the Catholic Church which convinced the Roman Government to legally pronounce Sunday a rest day. The Catholic Church claims that by its own authority, which they claim is from God, they changed the day of rest. But this makes God into a liar. Because the Sabbath was a day set aside at the creation for rest and to renew our relationship with God, then it was given to all men and therefore was not a temporary thing given because of the entrance of sin, unlike the ceremonial laws and sacrificial system which was given because of sin and is a temporary thing.

So, a simple principle by which to know the truth is to test it against anything against what God has said before. If it clearly contradicts that which came before and is a law or regulation of God and is not of a temporary nature, then it must be false. Thus, when I read in the Catholic Catechism that we may venerate images while worshipping the saints, this directly contradicts the law of God which says that you may not even so much as bow down to them, which is a form of honor to them that God says we are not to give to them. It says you are not to serve them, meaning not to give respect to them, obey their laws, reverence them, and so on. This tells me that the Catholic Teaching is invalid. Someone in their history decide that it was valid anyway and that they had the authority to authorize this in spite of what God has commanded. If their authorization is from God as they claim, then this makes God into a liar again.

Anytime someone makes God into a liar concering his rules and regulation for his citizens, then you are not hearing the truth from that person. Anyone contradicting God’s previously established statements based on statements that he supposedly made to them has not been spoken to by God and they are a liar or have delusions.

But, now, how do I know that God spoke those ten rules given in Exodus 20? Well, first, the Bible says so, but that is not good enough. To know that this is true, I need to know that God exists and what he is like. To know that, I have to go to the prophecies, which tells me that he exists. Second, I need to know that he is actually involved in our lives. Again, the prophecies fill that role because they make it clear that God is involved in the affairs of men (and women too). Once I have established in my own mind that God actually exists and is involved in our affairs, then I can know that he may have indeed spoken those ten rules to the Israelites in the wilderness.

But how do I know that he actually did speak those ten rules? I cannot prove it because I was not there. I have the word of Moses writing in Exodus 20 (or his scribes and editors writing in his name for him) that the events described there actually happened. But how do I know that Moses spoke the truth about this?

I think the answer to this boils down a little to the faith element. I cannot speak with Moses to find out what he saw and heard. I have only what he or his assistants wrote. So, I have to take the evidence at hand an evaluate it. Based on that, I find that what was reported is consistent with other things in the Bible. The mountain shaking should not be hard for God to do because the Bible says that he created the entire universe. The fire should not be difficult for God to do because he is the source of all energy. The rules spoken are consistent with the rest of the Bible because it constantly refers to the commandments of God and specifically mentions all of them in other parts of the Bible. We have the prophecies which show that God exists, is involved in our affairs, and finally, they also show that God is not a liar because he says that he declares the future and then we see it happen just as he said it would. Thus, we can trust that he is not a liar about that too. So, if he can be trusted, then when he declares that he is the author of the Bible and of the ten commandments, it seems reasonable to me to believe him. I find the evidence credible.

Of course, we have only “hearsay” evidence in that those who wrote the Bible were often witnesses to events and things said that we cannot see and hear for ourselves. We have to decide for ourselves if the evidence is reasonable. If so, then we should follow it, and if not, then perhaps we should continue investigating until we are sure that we have found the truth. You sure would not want to miss out on this if it is true. The cost would be far too high.

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The Rise of Theistic Evolutionism – The Salvation of Christianity?
Bill Sorensen,

I think that it is a terrible ordeal because when this comes about, you are either ready or you are not. Those who are not ready become desperate to become ready, but find that they cannot do so. The result is a desperate realization that they are lost. Yet, they look for salvation, but in the end, they find that they are receiving the plagues and definitely are lost. Many within the church will leave and those around them who remain will feel the sadness of their leaving because of the reason behind it.

The parable of the 10 virgins teaches exactly that this is what happens. Remember that there were 5 without sufficient oil and they were told to go out and buy more oil. So, they go looking for it. When they have found it, then they come knocking on the door, but they are not admitted because it is too late.

The oil represents the Holy Spirit in the early and middle parts of the parable, but at the end, I believe that it represents the word of God because when the door is closed, that is the end of the investigative judgment. There will be no Holy Spirit for anyone not saved once this happens, and yet in the parable, the five foolish virgins show up at the door, apparently having found the oil. But this oil at this point cannot represent the Holy Spirit because it will be impossible for them to have it then. Rather, I think that what it must represent then is soem experience and knowledge that they have lacked, particularly some particular type of knowledge that is found in the Bible, and once they find it and understand it, they think they are ready, but find that they are not to be admitted and will never be.

For whatever its worth, this is my understanding of this.

The Rise of Theistic Evolutionism – The Salvation of Christianity?
James,

I don’t fully understand this debate either. What I do not understand is why Seventh-day Adventists would ever consider theistic evolution to be true. I am saying that while the scientific evidence does appear to support it, there is the issue of the truthfulness of God and the Bible. If one accepts that God is true and does not lie, then why disbelieve what he says in Genesis? If one accepts that, then be a Christian. If one does not accept that, then go out and enjoy the world. There is no significant future for such, whether they be in the church or not because they do not believe God. The Bible says that salvation is by faith and if you don’t believe him, you have no salvation even if you are a Seventh-day Adventist.

So, it is by faith. We have an eyewitness. Do we believe him or not?

The Rise of Theistic Evolutionism – The Salvation of Christianity?
To Holly Pham,

You are right about that, of course. The woman who wrote me about this says that she was talking to someone about the work that Walter Veith has done (she believes what Walter Veith is doing is right) on teaching creationism and this pastor apparently made comments to the person she was talking to which effectively negated what she had just said. Aside from the issue of how this pastor handled this, there is the issue of him being plain wrong about it because he should not be doing that.

I urged her to report this pastor to her conference, but she declined. I don’t know why. This woman lives in the Seattle area and attends a church in that area. I live in Southern California, so am not in the same conference. I have not attended this man’s church, so cannot vouch for what she is saying from personal observation, so I doubt that the Washington conference would pay much attention to what I say about him.

I have done some investigation and discovered that this man has comoe to the attention of this web site before. He has written and published on the Internet a letter that was written against the letter that David Asherick sent out about the teaching of evolution at La Sierra, so you may well be able to guess who this person is. I did not realize that he had done this. I have read over his letter, and while some of what he says is partly true, there is a lack of understanding on his part of just what SDAs have been taught about creation and evolution.

Given the notoriety that has already attended this man’s presence in that church (which I did not realize was the case before last night), my guess is that his conference is well aware of what he is doing and has done nothing so far to stop it.

Unfortunately, this lack of action by the conference is not helping the kids in his congregation who have gone through his evolution class in church, nor does it help anyone else influenced by such thinking. To be honest with you, I think that someone needs to develop a more coherent plan of action on what to teach the children in the church about evolution and creation, and do so in a way that supports the Bible rather than the science. Science is good in so far as it can measure things, but it cannot know the whole story based on circumstantial evidence.

Let me add this little story about circumstantial evidence. Years ago my father told me of a man who was dating a young woman (this event happened in the state of Nebraska). There was another young man who wanted this girl and was jealous of the young man who was dating her. One day this fellow went to the place where she was living and killed her. Before he killed her, he learned from her that the young man that she was dating was to see her a short while later. Knowing this, he left her purse outside her home, knowing that this fellow would come by later and find it, and apparently not finding her home, would likely take the purse home with him, expecting to give it to her later when he next saw her. That worked, because her boyfriend did find the purse and took it home after she did not answer the doorbell. Of course, the police were called and they went looking for the boyfriend, and finding her purse in his possession, they arrested him for having murdered her. Based on the circumstantial evidence that he had her purse and apparently was known to have been to her home at about the time the murder took place, put him up for trial, where he was convicted of murder. He was later executed for that crime that he did not commit. Years later the other young man finally admitted on his deathbed what he had done. Of course, it was too late for the state to do anything about it, but God will take care of it later.

The point of this is that all scientific evidence of life having been here for billions of years is circumstantial in nature. It is the best that science, apart from the Bible, can do because we do not have time machines with which we can go back in time and witness the events happening and prove that they happened as they say they did. But circumstantial evidence can be misleading, just as it was in the case of that your fellow who was executed for a murder that he did not do. Circumstantial evidence can be misleading for many scientific reasons, but these would be reasons that science has failed to either understand or account for. Scientists do not know everything that has happened in this universe and even they are beginning to admit that there likely is a lot of physics that they do not at present know. Some physicists even say that we may never be able to actually know what reality is. There are just so many bizarre things that go on in our universe everyday that scientists cannot explain, even if we have mathematics that can quantify it. They cannot know all. That is the bottom line. They have no eyewitnesses to their proposed events of the long ago past. We have an eyewitness. Therein lies the difference.