Hi Phil, I appreciate your desire to uphold the Bible regardless …

Comment on The Full History of La Sierra University vs. Louie Bishop by Sean Pitman.

Hi Phil,

I appreciate your desire to uphold the Bible regardless of what the external evidence might say about it. However, I think this is a mistake. The Bible has nothing to fear from true science (vs. “science falsely so called”) or from a truly rational investigation into its claims. The Biblical authors always provide empirical evidence and rational arguments as a basis for faith (as does Mrs. White). We should not be like my LDS friends who believe in the Book of Mormon regardless of the weight of evidence against it. The Bible is to be believed because of the weight of evidence in its favor – because it is the most rational choice that the intelligent candid mind can conclude. Our faith need not be blind to the weight of evidence. Rather, faith and evidence can and should walk hand-in-hand.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com

Sean Pitman Also Commented

The Full History of La Sierra University vs. Louie Bishop
When I talk about the concept of science, I’m talking about how any new information is learned in a useful manner that is superior to wishful thinking (aka blind faith). One’s understanding of the Bible as the Word of God can be and I believe should be based on the weight of evidence that is currently in hand. Coming to the conclusion that the Bible is God’s Word requires work. It is not inherent knowledge, but must be learned based on evidence, not direct revelation.

“God is the foundation of everything. All true science is in harmony with His works; all true education leads to obedience to His government. Science opens new wonders to our view; she soars high, and explores new depths; but she brings nothing from her research that conflicts with divine revelation. Ignorance may seek to support false views of God by appeals to science, but the book of nature and the written word shed light upon each other. We are thus led to adore the Creator and to have an intelligent trust in His word.” – Ellen White, Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 115

“In the days of Noah, men, animals, and trees, many times larger than now exist, were buried, and thus preserved as an evidence to later generations that the antediluvians perished by a flood. God designed that the discovery of these things should establish faith in inspired history; but men, with their vain reasoning, fall into the same error as did the people before the Flood–the things which God gave them as a benefit, they turn into a curse by making a wrong use of them.” – Ellen White, Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 115

“God never asks us to believe without giving sufficient evidence upon which to base our faith. His existence, His character, the truthfulness of His word, are all established by testimony that appeals to our reason; and this testimony is abundant. Yet God has never removed the possibility of doubt. Our faith must rest upon evidence, not demonstration. Those who wish to doubt will have opportunity; while those who really desire to know the truth will find plenty of evidence on which to rest their faith . . .” Steps to Christ, p. 105;

Consider also that, “perfect assurance . . . is not compatible with faith. Faith rests not on certainty, but upon evidence.” Letter 19d, 1892, cited in The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, pp. 1029, 1030.

“For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.” – Romans 1:20 NIV

“The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.” – Psalms 19:1 NIV

God does not desire blind faith or blind obedience without the input of rational thought and understanding (which is also God-given by the way). Our faith in the Bible should be based on something more than some kind of internal warm fuzzy feeling or personal desire. Our faith in the Bible as the Word of God should be a rational faith that is based on the weight of evidence and its established predictive power – i.e., a form of scientific reasoning and understanding which forms the basis for a logical, rational leap of faith. It is in this manner that faith and science can, and I think must, walk hand-in-hand.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


The Full History of La Sierra University vs. Louie Bishop
God (and Truth) never changes. However, our understanding of Truth does change over time.

We learn and grow in our understanding of truth – to include our understanding of Biblical truth. One is not automatically born with the knowledge that the Bible is the real Word of God or how, exactly, to interpret it and all of its statements and passages. On the contrary, this requires effort and careful investigation and rational thought on our part.

Again, there’s nothing to fear from subjecting the Bible to careful investigation against the weight of evidence. God is the author of the Bible and true science…

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


The Full History of La Sierra University vs. Louie Bishop

1] Science is personal opinion? You claim;

“Ultimately science is done on the individual level. One may consider the evidence available to him/her and make a personal determination as to what the weight of evidence indicates is most likely true.” – Sean Pitman

As I have repeatedly said science is not subjective opinion it is what has been agreed by the community of scientists examining and arguing about the data recorded in the canonical literature of science. It is objective. You can clearly disagree with the conclusion but you must then propose a model and test it to convince others using the agreed methods and data.

Science is by no means entirely “objective”. There are objective elements, to be sure, but there is always a leap of faith and subjectivity involved when accepting any scientific hypothesis or theory as “most likely true.” Read Thomas Kuhn. Science is dependent upon the subjective interpretations of those using various scientific methodologies. Science is also affected by the backgrounds and biases of those involved. And, one can disagree with the conclusions of the majority based on one’s own personal background, experiences, and evaluation of the data without ever convincing another soul – and still be right.

I’ve given you several illustrations of this, but you constantly argue that these are “exceptions” to the rule. Well, my friend, such “exceptions” are important because they actually say something about what science is and isn’t – about what it is capable of achieving outside of majority opinion. That it can in fact be done, just fine, on the individual level.

2] You have expanded the concept of science with your idiosyncratic view of what is science to include all contemplation of human activity. That is absurd. Where is the rigor of statistical analysis you are so fond of when it comes to your pet idea of 1000 fsaar threshold and arguments about evolution. What is the statistical significance of a sample size of 1. Was Gideons sample size adequate? I suspect you would not suggest so unless you are being obtuse.

The sample size in support of the 1000 specifically arranged amino acid limit to evolutionary progress is enormous – to include all evolutionary experiments to date. There is no recorded example of evolutionary mechanisms producing anything close to this level of functional complexity – not a single example in untold millions of observations. That’s pretty good evidence in and of itself – not to mention the statistical impossibility if you sit down and actually do the math.

You yourself have admitted that you have no idea how the evolutionary mechanism works at various levels of functional complexity. You base everything on blind leaps of faith in the bold claims of scientists who also have no idea how the mechanism could do what they claim it did.

3] How much cardiothoracic surgery, neurosurgery bone marrow transplants do you personally do on a daily basis. I suspect none but why is that? It is because of a thing called credentially and specialization.
You readily seem to accept that but why do you then distort science to make it personal opinion and discount expertise. It is like you pushing aside Ben Carson and attempting to remove a glioblastoma from and the thalamus of a child with your bare hands. To do so is negligent in the extreme. For you to dismiss expertise in science and claim that personal experience trumps deep and expert study of an area of science is disrespectful in the extreme and as David Read would say makes you a “bad man”. A person whose hubris completely subjugates any care for the intellectual and religious development of anyone else.

I don’t discount expertise unless that expertise starts saying and/or doing things that don’t make any sense. If a bunch of experts told you that there was absolutely no hope for your son dying of some rare genetic disease, would that do it for you? Or, would you try to find a solution for yourself despite that the experts were telling you? There are numerous examples of individuals challenging the “expert” opinion of the day and being right – despite being ridiculed at first (or even dying without the recognition that they were actually right).

Experts aren’t always right. Remember that. It is possible for the individual to know more than the experts on occasion – and for very good reasons.

4] You say:

“So, personal opinion can be scientific, based on the weight of evidence as one personally understands it. But, what does that mean to someone else? Not much if you can’t present a rational reason for your faith or “personal opinion.””

You are of course right that a person can think rationally and use hypothesis testing method of science but that is not scientific as understood by anyone but yourself. Scientific thinking has to include acknowledgement of the facts and constructs of science based as they are on methodological naturalism. You do a great disservice by your wooly thinking about what is empirical evidence and what is science. If you continually invent idiosyncratic definitions it is little wonder as Jeff Kent has suggested you are considered ludicrous by most Adventist scientists. I would certainly be interested to hear if event a heterodox scientist like Art agrees with your definition of science.

There is nothing in any scientific methodology, outside of personal philosophy, that says that real science must be limited to proposing only mindless naturalistic hypotheses to explain various phenomena in nature. That’s nonsense. Science is fully able to discover the signature of intelligent design behind various artifacts – to include very very high levels of intelligent design reaching the level of a God or God-like Design. I’ve given you many examples of this already…

5] You arguments would be more compelling if you actually recognized what is the accepted meaning of science [from wikipedia]

“Science (from Latin scientia, meaning “knowledge”) is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.[1][2] In an older and closely related meaning, “science” also refers to a body of knowledge itself, of the type that can be rationally explained and reliably applied.”

I have no problem with these definitions as they can be, and ultimately must be, fulfilled by the individual. No one else can do your science for you. The only rational reason to accept the conclusions of a majority of experts is that experts are usually right. That, in itself, is a scientific conclusion from the individual perspective with testable predictive value. However, it is not true that the experts are always right or that a single individual cannot discover how the experts are wrong from time to time – even if no one else agrees.

In modern use, “science” more often refers to a way of pursuing knowledge, not only the knowledge itself. It is “often treated as synonymous with ‘natural and physical science’, and thus restricted to those branches of study that relate to the phenomena of the material universe and their laws, sometimes with implied exclusion of pure mathematics. This is now the dominant sense in ordinary use.”

Your definition of science may be loosely derivative of the more modern understanding but you should honestly acknowledge that your definition of science to include the supernatural is a private interpretation that flies in the face of the accepted definitions.

Not that it really matters, but in this case I am not remotely alone in my thinking that various features of the universe can best be explained by intelligent design on a God or God-like level of intelligence – a form of intelligence that cannot be detected, from our human perspective, as being less than God-like. The majority of physics, for example, believe that the anthropic features of the universe strongly suggest an origin in God-like intelligent design. Such is simply not beyond the realm of rational scientific detectability.

Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com


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