I’m sorry George, but do explain to me why you …

Comment on The Creator of Time by Sean Pitman.

I’m sorry George, but do explain to me why you see the concept of a “God” as undermining the basis of scientific reasoning and rational thought? If certain forms of empirical evidence (and only certain forms) are best explained by intelligent design on a very high level, how then is such a conclusion irrational? – or unscientific? – any more than modern sciences that go around detecting design behind various phenomena all the time? – like forensic science, anthropology, or even the proposals of SETI scientists?

On the other hand, an appeal to an eternal multiverse (with essentially infinite numbers of universes) to explain the existence of apparent design does undermine science and rational thought because it can be used to explain absolutely anything and everything that could possibly be used to undermine or challenge the hypothesis of mindless naturalism (making their hypothesis unfalsifiable and therefore inherently unscientific and irrational). The use of the multiverse notion does in fact undermine the very concept of predictive value and potential falsifiability upon which science is based. In short, it is nothing more than an effort to support and promote one’s own personal philosophy in the fact of actual empirical evidence and scientific reasoning…

The standard comeback, of course, is that God can also explain anything and therefore nothing. However, this isn’t what is being done with the God hypothesis (or the design hypothesis in general). Many things can be explained by appealing to non-intelligent non-deliberate forces of nature. However, there are also things that can only be rationally explained by invoking intelligent deliberate design (such as the faces on Mt. Rushmore or horses made of driftwood on the beach or a series of stacked stones). However, unlike the multiverse hypothesis, the ID-only hypothesis, as I like to call it, is very much open to testing and potential falsification – as is the case for any valid scientific hypothesis. All that has to be done is to find a non-intelligent natural process that can do something equivalent or at least similar (i.e., a viable naturalistic mechanism to explain the phenomenon in question)… and the ID-only hypothesis is neatly falsified.

That is why the biblically-depicted God is the most rational conclusion to explain the direction that the turtles are going in our empirical world/universe. While, on the other hand, the efforts of atheistic naturalists to propose infinite numbers of universes to take the place of God ends up making them all look like fools since such an argument is self defeating – undermining the very basis of rational thought and science itself.

The evident product of a non-thinking non-deliberate multiverse? – or intelligent design?

    You do realize that, from the multiverse perspective, you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between these formations of rocks and driftwood vs. any other type of formations that would generally be defined as “naturally produced” – since everything would be equally likely from the multiverse perspective.

Sean Pitman Also Commented

The Creator of Time
It’s been enjoyable having you. I wish you all the best. Someday, if I’m right, everything will be made clear and you will see your Maker face-to-face. Of course, if I’m wrong, neither one of us will be the wiser…

By the way, I am not a “young Earth creationist” or “YEC”, but something a bit different – a young life creationist (YLC). Of course, from your perspective it makes little difference. 😉

The Creator of Time
A “Rational Wiki” quote? – about proof and disproof? 😉

First off, science isn’t about absolute proof, but the weight of evidence. Nothing can be absolutely proved in science – only disproved. The power of science is in the ability for the hypothesis in question to resist disproof, thereby gaining predictive value. This means, of course, that a valid scientific hypothesis must be testable in a potentially falsifiable manner.

Now, as far as the particular claim that ID hypotheses are not and cannot be falsifiable (and by extension any notion or hypothesis of God-like activity isn’t falsifiable either), it’s clearly not true or modern sciences that actually detect ID wouldn’t be possible – like forensics, anthropology, and SETI. As previously noted for you, the ID-only hypothesis can be tested in a potentially falsifiable manner – quite easily. All you have to do to falsify the ID-only hypothesis is show how something else could more reasonably explain the phenomenon in question – and the ID-only hypothesis is neatly falsified.

For example, if you can find a mindless naturalistic mechanism that can reasonably explain the origin of a highly symmetrical granite cube, you would neatly falsify the hypothesis that only ID can explain the origin of the cube. Short of this, however, the ID-only hypothesis gains a great deal of predictive value based on the strong weight of evidence that is currently in hand. That is why it is possible to tell the difference between the most likely origin of such a granite cube vs. a snowflake or the like.

The same is true for the God-only hypothesis. As I’ve explained for you multiple times now, there are various levels of phenomena that require various levels of intelligence to explain. As higher and higher level phenomena require higher and higher levels of intelligence and creative power to explain, one eventually comes to a point where the level of required intelligence and creative power is so high that it cannot be readily distinguished from what one would normally attribute to a God or God-like being. It is for this reason that if you yourself saw someone you knew was dead and decaying in the grave, raised to life at the word of someone claiming to be God, even you would tend to believe this claim – and rightly so. That means, of course, that the detection of God-like creative power is rationally detectable, at least in theory, given the presentation of such evidence.

Philosophical naturalism, on the other hand, is not at all testable in a potentially falsifiable manner. It is not even theoretically possible to falsify a theory that is dependent upon evidence that you have yourself proposed will show up at some undetermined time in the future. It is therefore not a science or otherwise rational, but is on the same level as wishful thinking – just not helpful.


    As an aside, I have to also point out that the claims for the creative potential of the evolutionary mechanism presented on this particular “Rational Wiki” webpage are not backed up by demonstration or reasonable statistical analysis or workable genetic theories – at least not beyond very low levels of functional complexity. They’re nothing but just-so stories. I mean, why hasn’t James Tour been convinced by this stuff? Because, there’s simply no science here… as you would know if you did your own independent research into the potential and limits of the evolutionary mechanism. Their claims regarding “flagellar evolution” are a case in point when it comes to glossing over the details and not understanding the exponentially growing problem of finding novel beneficial sequences in the vastness of sequence space with each step up the ladder of functional complexity: Link

The Creator of Time
How long should you look for a mindless naturalistic mechanism to explain a highly symmetrical granite cube before it becomes obvious that such a mechanism will most likely never be discovered? – that intelligent design is by far the most likely reason for its existence regardless of when or where such a cube might be found? – even if found on an alien planet like Mars?

Suggesting, at this point, that a mindless mechanism must be the answer for the origin of our granite cube, and that one day such a mechanism will be discovered, is not science – but faith that is deliberately blind to the strong weight of evidence that is currently in hand which puts a clear statistical limit on what all known mindless mechanisms are able to achieve, or are ever likely to achieve this side of eternity, with the material of granite.

Likewise, any religion that is based on the same blind faith, faith that is directly opposed to the weight of empirical evidence that is currently in hand, is no more helpful or trustworthy than the religion of philosophical naturalism. Such a religion would be “effectively indistinguishable from atheism” (William Provine, 1987).

As with science and any helpful hypothesis or theory, any useful religion which aims to establish a solid hope in rational people must be based on the weight of evidence which establishes the credibility and predictive power of the religion. If God exists, He is the creator of rational thought and scientific investigation and would not give these reasoning powers to us if He expected us to “forgo their use” (Galileo, 1615) – particularly when searching for Him and His signature in the works of nature or the inspiration of texts claiming to be derived from Him.

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