@Ken. Thank you. It seems to me that …

Comment on Supreme Court Decision on Church Employment Case by Ron.

@Ken. Thank you. It seems to me that Jesus once said of someone like you, “Thou art not far from the kingdom of god”

Bill&#032Sorensen: So SDA’s do not limit our confession of faith to simply “the bible only”, but the bible as understood and presented to us by the pioneers, especially EGW.

I accept the Bible, and I believe in what Mrs. White had to say about it, and I even accept that our understanding is informed by the experience of our pioneers, but I still reject your statement that our confession is based on the Bible plus anything, including Mrs. White and the pioneers. Mrs. White explicitly rejected that stance. She consistently represented herself as being a lessor light leading to the greater light. She explicitly stated that she was fallible, and that our understanding of scripture is limited and fallible, and she at least strongly implied if not stated outright, that there would come a time when me might have to change some of our long held beliefs. Our forefathers also had a long debate about developing a creed and explicitly rejected the idea so that our church would not be bound down, but would be open and free to follow God’s truth however He leads.

@ Colin Maunder
RE: Usher’s chronology. I was a religion major and I am not ignorant of Usher’s chronology. I am not going to get into it now because it is beside the point. Let it be sufficient to say that the Dead Sea scrolls had not been found at the time of Usher and by the late 1970’s even conservative Adventist theologians discredited Usher’s methodology based on linguistic and textual grounds.

In this point I could be wrong, and I don’t want to argue it here, but I think I remember being told somewhere that Mrs. White accepted the 6000 years because Usher’s chronology was the commonly accepted belief at the time, not that she was given that specific number in a vision. The point is that, whether it comes from Usher, or Mrs. White, it is a man made interpretation of the Bible. It is not explicitly stated in the Bible, and therefore it should not be included in a creedal formulation, even if you accept the idea of a creed which I reject.

@Bill
“And finally, do you actually think any and every church has no right to discipline those who attack it from within?”

First, that is not what was happening here. The teachers at La Sierra were good loyal Adventists who were teaching Biology the best way they knew how given the fact that after 50 years of research the (I forget the name is it the Geoscience Research Institute that was set up by the GC in the 50’s?) has completely and totally failed to find any convincing evidence to support a short earth time. In fact I understand that the GC had to let several of the directors go because they became convinced otherwise after studying into it extensively.

Second, every other organization of any kind in the world has the right to do that EXCEPT the Adventist Church. The Adventist church does not have that right because of their unique claim to be following Present Truth.

Religion is full of paradoxes, and here is another one. Once you make the claim that you are the repository for God’s present truth, and state your intention to follow God where ever he might lead, you have to give up the right to be right for several reasons.
1. If you don’t, you are making the same error that Catholic church made, and you wind up making an image to the beast.
2. The notion of Present Truth implies that humanity can never fully understand God and that you never know all the truth. There is always more for God to reveal.
3. The fact that you do not yet have all the truth, implies that much of what you think is true isn’t. (In medical school our teachers said, half of everything we teach you is wrong. It is up to you to figure out which half.)
4. The search for truth requires open respectful dialogue. Unless everyone just goes their own way independently without regard to reason, you have to have a reasoned argument and that requires both participants be open to influence. It is impossible to search for truth unless you willing to accept the risk of being shown to be wrong. (This is why it is really foolish for me to argue with Bob. I don’t get any sense that he is open to change. I do it partly in the hope of influencing other readers, as well as to test the strength of my own ideas.)
5. It is also impossible to search for truth unless it is SAFE to be wrong. You need someone to take the opposite side of the issue. Sometimes you need to do it yourself. To be the “Devils advocate” so to speak. Here is where having a creed becomes very problematic. It makes it no longer safe to explore.

6. Being right puts blinders over your eyes. Here is an example: Those like Bob who advocate for a creed, are so focused on being right about the 7 days, 6000 years ago, and making sure the church is pure, that they totally miss the whole point of the Genesis story! Let me paraphrase the story to see of it helps.

God gave Man space to be independent. And when you are talking in reference to God, that by definition means space to be wrong. Have you noticed the conundrum implied by the name of the tree, “The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil”?

One way to summarize the essence of the story, would be to say that God made a claim. Satan made a counterclaim. Without the “Knowledge of Good and Evil”, how is Man going to know which claim is true? The dilemma is that He cannot KNOW which claim is good, and which claim is evil, until he does the experiment. Until He eats from the forbidden tree and gains the knowledge.

Wisdom is generally defined as the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. In most of the Bible it is considered a virtue. But here in Genesis, the choice is between being safe and forever innocent, or to take a risk and experience the pain of evil for the sake of gaining wisdom.

Do you remember the story about the discussion Jesus and God had as to whether they should proceed to create man after Satan’s fall, and Jesus agreed to become “the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world”? God and Jesus decided, that the value of Man gaining the virtue of wisdom (and love) was worth it; even at the cost of Man’s innocence, and Jesus life, and all the pain of this evil world. So the decision was made to proceed with Man’s creation.

And when Man did the experiment what happened? Did God reject man? No!
Yes, there were some temporary short term consequences, and that is the rest of the Bible story, but in the Garden, Jesus came looking for man. He confronted man with the consequences of knowing evil and made the commitment to be the “Messiah”, “God With Us”. God came to live with us, to share the joy of the good, and the pain of the evil with us. And in Revelation, when the story ends, because Man is the only creature in the universe other than God, to have experienced “Good and Evil”, Man is put on the throne with God to judge the living and the dead.

So you see. The whole plan of salvation is about God making it safe for man to do the experiment. That is why it is wrong for the Adventist church (or any other church for that matter) to have a creed and expel people based on the creed. It sabotages the very gospel itself. It is fighting against the very work Christ came to do, to live life with us. All of us, both the good and the evil. Life is worth it!

(And Yes, that came directly from the Bible and Mrs. White. It is not my own creation.)

Ron Also Commented

Supreme Court Decision on Church Employment Case

Bill&#032Sorensen: Many will stand in our pulpits with the torch of false prophecy in their hands, kindled from the hellish torch of Satan

Bill, It is Satan who is the “accuser of the brethren”. You might want to re-read your post with that in mind.

Bill&#032Sorensen: And so they point out how “loving and tolerant” Jesus was, and refuse to acknowledge His direct challenge to the false doctrine and theology the religious leaders taught in His day.

Hmm . . . The only time I recall Jesus challenging doctrine, is when he explicitly contradicted the clear teaching of the Bible on how to observe the Sabbath. (Something to think about.)

The only time he really got angry was when the people were being robbed in the temple, when they were plotting his murder, and when they were condemning sinners.

I see the spirit of Jesus as being in direct opposition to the spirit of conservativism.


Supreme Court Decision on Church Employment Case

Holly&#032Pham: Is La Sierra an “autonomous” institution with regards to our SDA Church?

Perhaps the institution is not autonomous, but the thoughts of the the people within the institution should always be, with the possible exception of hate speech.


Supreme Court Decision on Church Employment Case

Bill&#032Sorensen: You see the point clearly. And as I said, David represents “the church” of today for the most part.

When it comes to the original topic of this web site, how to deal with members in our church who hold a minority position on how to interpret Gen. 1, I find this comment very instructive.

Bill here acknowledges that his view on the fundamental belief of salvation by faith differs from that of the church at large. Some how the church tolerates the membership of Bill, and people like him.

Yet, Bill and others on this web site advocate the excommunication of Biology teachers and others who differ with them over the timing of creation.

This attitude of intolerance of wrong.


Recent Comments by Ron

Revisiting God, Sky & Land by Fritz Guy and Brian Bull
@Sean Pitman:
I think what you say could only be true if God were not a loving God.


Revisiting God, Sky & Land by Fritz Guy and Brian Bull
@Sean Pitman:
Can you think of any metafore for God in the Bible where God would not in some way be responsible for our actions? The ones that come to mind for me are: sovereign, Lord, father, shepherd, a male lover. In all of these metafores God is responsible for either instigating the relationship as in the Song of Songs, or being an advocate, protector, or supervisor. I can’t think of anywhere in the Bible where God denies responsibility. I can think of lots of places where he claims responsibility and oundard explanation is, “Oh, he didn’t really mean that, He really just allowed some one else to do it,” Satan, Pharaoh, evil king etc.


Revisiting God, Sky & Land by Fritz Guy and Brian Bull
@Sean Pitman:

“I’m not sure how many more times I have to explain this concept to you? Natural laws, created by God, work independent of God’s need for direct deliberate action.”

Sean, where do you get this idea that there is a natural law apart from God’s action? I don’t see that being taught in the Bible anywhere.


Revisiting God, Sky & Land by Fritz Guy and Brian Bull
@Sean Pitman:

I think it comes down to semantics and perspective.

I think that you are still looking at the problem from a human perspective rather than God’s perspective. Move your point of reference up one level.

It is not God’s will that we sin, but the fact that we sin is not outside God’s will.

It is much like when my teenagers started driving. It was not my will that they have an accident, but I knew that it was almost certain that they eventually would, so I got them an older SUV to drive instead of my Lexus, and I bought insurance, sent them to driver’s school, and did my best to make them defensive drivers. My will and desire that they learn to drive, included the possibility that they would have an accident, so when they had an accident, it was not outside my will, or you might say, planning. I was prepared for it.

I think, this is an important perspective to have, because it takes a huge burden off of people when they sin. They know that they are still within God’s will, that he has a plan and can take care of it, that he still loves them, and that it is OK. They don’t have to go away and hide from God, because it is OK. God still loves them. They are still OK with God. He has a plan. He can take care of it. They are still within His will.

I don’t want my kids to run away and stop talking to me when they have an accident, because they are afraid of me. In fact, when they have their accident is exactly when I want them to talk to me the most. There isn’t any kind of accident that they can have, that I can’t deal with.

And I don’t want them to be afraid of driving, just because there is a risk of death, either. Yes, if they were killed, that would be tragic, but to be afraid of dying would be even more tragic. So, yes, I warn them, and I nag them about their defensive driving, and if they are killed, I will grieve terribly, but even their death is within my will. I would rather them live life to the fullest, and take the risk of death, than to not live, or to live fearful, timid, “safe” lives.

In the same way, the problem in the Garden of Eden wan’t so much eating the apple, God already had an insurance plan in place. Christ was the “Lamb That Was Slain From The Foundation Of The World”. God could fix it. They were still within His will.

Notice in the quote you quoted above about Satan. God could have restored Satan to his ORIGINAL position if, when he understood the nature of his action, he had been just willing to accept God’s forgiveness and take his position back again. There was no death penalty at that point, and Christ would NOT have had to die. It wasn’t until Satan completely understood the true consequences of his action and STILL refused to return to his original position, that his position was finally removed from him.

So, applying the same principles to Adam and Eve’s case shows us that it wasn’t the eating of the apple, or sin, per se’ that necessitated Christ’s death, it was their fear that caused them to run away and to try to justify themselves that necessitated Christ’s death.

Just like with Satan, the only reason God couldn’t restore them to their original position is the fear that made them run away from Him. It was their FEAR of His judgement. That is what made it impossible for God to fix it. That is what truly resulted in the death penalty. It was just as if my kid’s had runaway from home after their first accident. I would not have been able to help them.

Truthfully, when my kid’s had their accidents, I wasn’t even that upset. I pretty much expected it, and I was prepared. In the same way, I believe God pretty much expected it and was prepared.

God knew the fear that Satan had raised in the minds of the universe. He knew that the fear is the primary motivator for rebellion, and that it would eventually bear fruit in rebellion. But what could He do? This isn’t something you can resolve with words, and coercion or punishment would only make things worse. (Back to the main topic, Coercion is EVIL). Only a demonstration of God’s loving self sacrifice in response to sin could resolve the fear. (It is really hard to rebel against someone you believe truly has your best interest at heart. Think about it.)

So what did He do? He put the trees on all of the worlds and waited. He gave a warning of the consequences of eating of the tree, which is really the consequence of the fear that generated the rebellious act.

He was right to give the warning, but it was impossible for the warning to be effective. The word “death” has no meaning to someone who has never seen it. It would be like naming colors to a person born blind.

So was it God’s will that Adam and Eve be afraid of Him? No, of course not. But, being afraid, because of Satan’s deception, was it God’s will that they live forever in fear and doubt? No, of course not. So, what alternative is there?

The ONLY alternative that affirms a full and vibrant life without fear, is to confront the fear itself. At some point, someone in the Universe has to have the courage (remember courage can not exist without fear) to act on, or in spite of, their fear. And at some point God has to demonstrate that even in the face of rebellion, He loves us, forgives us, and invites us back to His heart and home. The only way for Him to abolish fear is to demonstrate that He has OUR best interest at heart, even above His own. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son.” That is the true healing power of the cross. It abolishes fear.

So that is why I affirm Eve’s action. It confronts the fear, and affirms that life is worth living in spite of the risk and pain of death, in the same way that I affirm my child’s learning to drive in spite of the risk of pain and death. I affirm it because a full life, free from fear is worth it. It was through Eve’s action that God was able to remove fear from the heart of the Universe forever. It was also through Eve’s action, that God came to dwell within the heart of man. 2 Peter 1:3,4. A far more exalted position, and intimate relationship than is possible for any other being in the Universe.

It is only when we remain afraid of God, after all He has sacrificed for us that we are outside His will. What more can He do?

It is only when we are afraid to embrace life for fear of pain and death that we are outside his will. What more can He do?

So it is for these reasons that being punitive toward member’s and employee’s who are embracing all of the challenges of a vigorous, lively discussion of religion and science, especially evolution is wrong. The punitive action arises out of fear, and misrepresents God to the Universe as a God of fear and coercion.


Revisiting God, Sky & Land by Fritz Guy and Brian Bull
@Sean Pitman:

“This mindless evolutionary mechanism gives an advantage to the individual that sustains a reproductive advantage regardless of what this advantage might do to the overall system or environment within which the individual lives. In other words, this evolutionary mechanism is what is responsible for various forms of cancer which end up destabilizing the higher level environment,”

This statement seems illogical to me. Evolution doesn’t cause cancer, things like radiation damage cause cancer. I don’t see how a population that gets cancer has a selection bias over a population that does not get cancer. It seems to me that the population that doesn’t get cancer will very soon out perform the population that gets cancer and those with cancer will very shortly become a small percentage of the overall population.

PS. I know the phrase “Survival of the fittest” has a bad connotation and I don’t like it, but here is a good example of it in a positive context. Let’s say we have an environment that is subject to high radiation exposure. The off spring of those individuals that are more resistant to getting cancer from radiation are going to survive better than those who are more susceptible to radiation damage. To me this represents a positive adaptive response that a loving creator would be likely to build into his creation.