Hi Ken, I am not sure why Sean believes that agnostics …

Comment on Supreme Court Decision on Church Employment Case by Faith.

Hi Ken,

I am not sure why Sean believes that agnostics will be in heaven. That is his thought and he’s entitled to it. However, from what I know of God, the plan of redemption, and God’s law–which is what we will be judged on–He will not save anyone who is His avowed enemy.

That said, Sean and I both know that people will be judged on what they know…but still further, what they had the opportunity to know. It depends on the will, the character, and the willingness to be obedient to God. How many agnostics do you know that are willing to be obedient to God?

I will openly and willingly admit that there will be people in heaven who didn’t know the whole truth and who lived up to whatever light they had to the best of their ability. However, in the case of an agnostic, they stand up against God. If they do not repent of this attitude, how can God save them?–they are His enemies.

You see, Ken, I am not saying that an agnostic or atheist etc. cannot change their beliefs and become a friend of God…but in my view, and using all the knowledge that I have gained within the last almost 60 years of being in this church and learning the Bible, I don’t believe God will save anyone who openly denies and defies Him. He will never again tolerate rebellion among the inhabitants of heaven.

Its something like this: if a person is offered a fabulous free vacation, on condition of signing a contract, and he refuses to sign because he doesn’t believe it is truly free, then he doesn’t get the benefits that the contract represents.

Another way to think about it is: the plan of redemption and Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was to allow humanity to make a choice–believe on God and He will save you and give you everlasting life or refuse the offer and die the eternal death. God wouldn’t have gone to all this trouble and heartache just to save all human beings, regardless of their characters or beliefs. What kind of heaven would it be if murderers, rapists, and all manner of criminals were allowed into heaven? God kicked Satan out of heaven for the good of its inhabitants. Do you seriously think He will invite people with unchanged hearts and lives to live in the place of purity and holiness? Truth is, anyone who is sinful cannot abide the pure light of heaven. That is what will kill the unsaved when Jesus comes. They will not be able to endure the light when they look on God. What would be the point of taking them to heaven? They would be in unspeakable agony all the time.

God is too loving and kind to do that to sinners. Earthlings often put down a suffering animal so they will be spared the pain. Would God not show the same kind of love and care for sinful man whom He created?

We, as SDAs, do not believe in an unending burning hell. That theory came into the early church from Greek mythology and has no biblical foundation. God is kind and loving even to those who are His enemies. There will be a fire at the end for those who refuse His ‘contract’, but the sinner will burn according to his sins and then he will be no more. Once the last one has burned,(who will, of course, be Satan, the instigator of this whole mess), the earth will be purified of sin and sinners. The unhappy presence of sin will be over and done and it will never be tolerated by God again. Should it ever raise its ugly head once more, it will be summarily dealt with. No one will want to, or need to, go through all this again. Praise God.

Upon these principles I believe that no agnostic will be in heaven. Sean will have to explain his own thoughts on the subject.

Faith Also Commented

Supreme Court Decision on Church Employment Case

Lydian: This Book is no ordinary Book. It is as sacred as God is–it’s Author is God Himself and it demands our deepest respect. We claim to believe what it SAYS–and we need to respect what it IS. At least this is the way I see it.
Lydian

I agree with you Lydian. When I am typing and I make a mistake, I feel impelled to go back and correct it. Capitalizing does show respect. It is unfortunate that in this busy world we don’t take the time and/or effort to show this respect to God’s Word.


Supreme Court Decision on Church Employment Case
Ron: It seems to be when they abandon all hope of salvation even to the point of ceasing even to attempt to resist the temptation, it is at that point that Christ steps in.

This is utter nonsense. To cease to try to resist temptation is exactly what Satan wants, and will cost you your salvation. We cannot have enough strength to resist temptation on our own, but we must do our part.

Ron: It also makes you realize that neither God, nor the church are threatened by things like biology teachers teaching evolutionary biology.

How could you possibly believe such a thing? If, as you claim, you are all about the love of God, how could you stand by and see Him insulted? How can you see Satan robbing Him of the glory He so richly deserves? Is that your style of love?

He created us–each and every one of us. Genetics is the vehicle He uses to do so, but make no mistake, He is involved in the creation of each new life. He endows us with physical characteristics, grants us talents to use in His service, and then, with tender regard for this creation of His, teaches us, through the Bible, all about Himself and how the earth was made. Evolution spits in His face, steals from Him, and denies Him. Why should the church, who loves Him, accept and tolerate such abominible treatment?

Anyone who accepts evolution does not love God. You’re fooling yourself if you think such acceptance has anything to do with love for God or man. And one thing I do know–God does not accept such blatent rebellion against Him. If you think that tolerance of sin is love, you are absolutely deluded.

Ron: We see fear of losing the Sabbath, and blindness to all the other reasons to keep the Sabbath that would continue even if it weren’t a symbol of creation.

What we see is not fear, but the handwriting on the wall. Think, Ron, what would be the point of keeping the Sabbath if not for Creation, which it is a memorial of? It isn’t just a day off from work. Keeping the Sabbath means that we acknowledge God as our Creator. That point is so important, that it will divide the saved from the lost. If we don’t accept the Creation account as written in the Bible, we forfeit the right to eternal life with the One who created us. Why? Because we side with Satan in the Great Controversy if we deny God as our Creator. Did you understand what I just said? It is Satanic to believe in evolution.

So, yes, we have a right as SDAs to be upset by teachers/professors teaching this tripe to our children and young people. We have a duty to demand that this situation be corrected post haste, and we have an obligation to see that this heresy be put out of our church. Anyone who clings to this rather than the truth needs to find somewhere else to go and worship whatever apostate god they are esteeming higher than the real, genuine, God of the universe.

Ron: If it means that my faith in Christ and evolution are delusions and that I am lost, then I am lost. If Elder Wilson is successful in driving people like me from the church, then I will go in peace.

I find that incredible that you would trade your salvation for the theory of a mere man. How cheaply you sell it out.

I can only hope and pray that Elder Wilson will hold true to his mandate and will indeed be successful of purifying God’s church from the heresy that has crept in.

You say you feel sad for Bill, but I feel sad for you and all your companions in this delusion. How you cannot see where you are wrong is beyond me. But I guess that is what it means to be deluded, isn’t it? Plain and simple–if you accept evolution, you deny God. How can you not see it?


Supreme Court Decision on Church Employment Case

Eddie: If conservative SDAs can’t agree on the details of something as vital as how a person obtains salvation, how can all members ever be expected to agree on the details of less important matters such as how and when the creation occurred?

Eddie, what makes you think creation is a less important matter? Creation is interwoven into our salvation. It was creation that caused Satan to go on the warpath in the first place. He felt he should have been consulted in the matter. And because he was not consulted, he is now trying to deny it ever happened in order to steal the glory from God. Evolution exists for this purpose. You should know that.


Recent Comments by Faith

Changing the Wording of Adventist Fundamental Belief #6 on Creation
And you are correct, Sean, PK must consider where his influence is going–for God or against Him.


Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
Mr Taylor,

After reading your comment above, I must say PK isn’t the only one in that boat.I would make some comment as to how I really feel about you, but I know Sean will only delete it and you won’t benefit from my insight anyway–seeing as Sean is more concerned about other people’s feelings than you seem to be.

How you have the nerve to come to this website and call us all a bunch of morons (which is really what you are doing) is beyond me. You and your cronies are the ones drowning in error. Anyone who dares to accept man’s opinions over the Bible or SOP isn’t to be trusted to define truth for anyone.

Too straight-forward in my comment? Trust me, I have restrained myself admirably. If you only knew….


Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
Further to my comment on skeptism and our professors, I’ve got to tell you that I found Prof Kent to be extremely annoying in his comments on EGW. He seems to think that she is an embarrassment to the church when she speaks on Science.

Personally I find people who dis her to be the embarrassment to the church. I really don’t see how they dare to contradict and mock God’s prophet. By doing this they undermine a lot of our church’s beliefs to outsiders as well as church members. God will hold them accountable for that.

Furthermore, David’s unpublished manuscript plus other books I have read on archaeology have reported skeletons of the type that EGW mentions. Also found were artifacts such as huge iron bedsteads made for and buried with kings of huge stature.

Just because you haven’t done your research, PK, don’t jump to the conclusion the evidence isn’t there. It’s there, all right, and you make yourself look a little foolish for not knowing about it.


Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
David Read said:

“Ellen White’s statements about larger antediluvian life forms are well attested with regard to many different types of flora and fauna. They’re not even controversial…

Hi David,

As you know, I took advantage of your kind offer and I read your manuscript as well as I purchased 3 of your books, one for me, one for my sisters, and one for the church library. It took me a week to finish the book, and I and my sisters are very impressed with it. My one sister calls it “one incredible book”. It has answered a lot of the questions we had on the subject of evolution vs creation science, and, yes, I believe we (you and I and my sisters) are on the same page in our beliefs. We have immensely enjoyed discussing the various aspects of the subject as we read. It makes perfect sense to us.

I still have a couple of questions–new ones will probably always keep popping up–but I would say you have covered the subject admirably. Thanks so much for this book.

I agree with Elder Wilson, this is something every Adventist should read. In my opinion it should be used as required reading for science courses. It is exactly the way I would want science courses in the universities to treat the Creation/evolution debate in the classroom. And if the professors at LSU and the other SDA institutions would do this we wouldn’t be constantly losing our young people and, for that matter, our professors, to skeptisism.

Thank God someone has the courage to publish the truth and expose error.

God Bless you, David.


Southern Adventist University opens Origins Exhibit
Hi Sean and Bill,

I am wondering if the difference of opinion here is due to varying definitions of the word ‘science’. As we all know there is true science and there is worldly psuedo-science.

If Bill’s understanding of ‘science’ in this case is actually worldly psuedo-science, then he is correct in not wanting any truth to be compromised with it.

From Sean’s post, I believe he is referring to true science, which is definitely part of our beliefs on origins and is well supported by the Bible and SOP, as Sean admirably demonstrated.

Not having seen the exhibit myself, I cannot comment on whether or not they are mixing psuedo-science into it. (Perhaps a few of you posters out there can see the exhibit and report back to us.) Knowing the general philosophy of SAU, I would be surprised if they did.

Their goal is “to provide scientific evidence that substantiates the Bible’s account of creation.” Sounds good to me.
They also say: “Religion and science don’t need to be at odds.” And that is true when you are referring to true science, which I believe they are.

However, I do understand Bill’s reaction in that these days when people use the word ‘science’ without qualification it so often means evolutionary pseudoscience, that we tend to be suspicious.

I think, Bill, that in this case we don’t need to worry. I believe SAU’s heart is in the right place and I am so glad that at least one of our institutions is willing to stand up and be counted on the side of Creation, even though they will probably draw much criticism from the ‘scientific’ community as well as from the TEs in their own church.

God bless them for their fidelity to Him. And may God strengthen them to meet the onslaught that is most likely to follow, is my prayer for them.