Nothing at the cross took place that altered the covenant …

Comment on Christians and the Sabbath by Bill Sorensen.

Nothing at the cross took place that altered the covenant “obey and live, disobey and die.” But this covenant is worthless if a person is already under the condemnation of sin and death. We have already “disobeyed in Adam” and are thus condemned. None the less, God has provided an atonement for sin and if we accept this provision for salvation and return to loyalty to God and His authority, we can be saved.

So, in the end, if we are lost, it is not Adam’s fault, even though it was his fault that we are initially lost and condemned. We can individually choose the redemption and atonement of Christ, or, we can choose to remain lost. “Whosoever will may come” is the invitation to lost sinners. But Jesus said, “They won’t come to me that they might have life.”

People are accountable for knowledge of the will of God and only if that knowledge is not available are the forgiven for sins of ignorance. Sins of ignorance become sins of rebellion if and when the sinner rejects truth presented, or ignores the opportunity to “seek and ye shall find.”

But we are on probation and the time factor is an element that we must take into account, thus we never try to make a final evaluation on anyone and this is what it means to “judge not, that ye be not judged.”
None the less, we can see if a person is walking in the will of God by their present actions and are duty bound to point out sin for their good. As well as to the cross for forgiveness of past ignorance.

Jesus said to the religious leaders of His day, “If ye were blind, you would have no sin (that could not be pardoned). But now you say ‘we see’ therefore your sin remains (unpardonable.)

This applies to all of us and we need to be aware of the outcome that happened to them will also happen to us. It’s really not that complicated, is it?

Bill Sorensen Also Commented

Christians and the Sabbath
The mark of the beast is any sin that can be committed. The only reason that Sunday vs. the Sabbath is identified as the “mark of the beast” is because it is related to religious liberty. No true believer would ever appeal to the civil government to enforce a 7th day Sabbath law on an unbeliever. If we can not persuade them by way of scripture, then we are aware that they will answer to God for how they responded to the bible.

On the other hand, the children of Satan always respond to challenge by force and will call upon the civil government to enforce their agenda. But only when the issue becomes intense enough so that an either/or decision must be made. The first example is Cain killing Abel. Abel never would have killed his brother Cain because he would not conform to the way Abel understood the will of God. This principle has been repeated down through the history of mankind, and is finally culminated at the end of the world as the final test between good and evil. It just happens to be the Sabbath vs. Sunday because the early church changed the day of worship and eventually claimed it was the sign of their authority over the bible.

It could have been any sin defined by the word of God, but it happens to be the Sabbath issue. So any sin is the “mark of the beast” and it is always man’s authority vs. God. And this is why no one has “the mark of the beast” at the present time in the present conflict on the issue of Sabbath observance. Only when it is related to religious liberty that is taken away and Sunday is enforced as a religious ordinance by the civil government.

None the less, there will be no Sunday keepers in heaven, anymore than there will be any liars in heaven. The redeemed are 7 days ascending to the sea of glass and one of those days must necessarily be the Sabbath. There will not be a soul raised in the first resurrection who will not joyfully and willingly accept instruction on the meaning and value of the Sabbath as God has stated in His word and affirmed to them before they get to heaven.

And yes, we are “saved” by obedience to the law of God. No one can escape the wrath of God and be saved from the penalty of the law which is death, unless they respond to the gospel just as the bible states for the sinner to respond. If you think you can be saved without responding as the bible enjoins, you are far outside what the bible teaches. So, just because we can not merit heaven, or pay for our own sins as Rome claims, does not mean we play no part in our own salvation by the way we respond to the word of God. The covenant of “obey and live” has not been negated in any way or any level by some new covenant that negates the law of God as the condition of eternal life.

The fact that we “come short” does not negate the covenant. Jesus makes up the difference where we “come short” and His forgiveness and merit is added to our obedience and thus we have a fitness for heaven. The SDA church has adopted a lot of apostate Protestant theology that is foreign to all the confessions of faith in the historic Protestant movement. The phrase “faith alone” was formulated in opposition the Rome who claimed the believer’s response merited the favor of God. But “faith alone” simply meant the the merits of Christ alone earned our salvation and redemption. The human factor was never negated in the salvation process and was sometimes called “instrumental” as our faith unites us to Christ as a moral mandate coupled with repentance and obedience to the will of God. So our response does not “merit heaven” but is, none the less, a moral mandate for salvation. This reality is not taught in the SDA church as it should be, and the confusion will only continue until this issue is clearly defined and articulated.


Christians and the Sabbath
“. The concept of sin is based on a deliberate rebellion against that which is fully known to be right and true.”

This is a superficial definition of sin, Sean. “Sin is transgression of the law.” Period. God defines law and sin and our ignorance of truth does not alter the bible definition of sin.

We are born liars and the lies we tell are simply the proof and fruit of this fact. A man with a sinful heart is a sinful man. And “the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.” But we are not only morally depraved because of Adam’s sin, we are legally “cut off” and/or divorced from God and not members of His family.

We are not born “in Christ” and thus we must be “born again” into Christ as a legal right to heaven, and morally transformed for a fitness for heaven. The doctrine of original sin is biblical. Just because the RCC perverts this doctrine and baptizes babies is no reason to reject the doctrine itself. The reason they baptize babies is valid. But the method is not. The RCC perverts many if not all bible truths, but this is no reason to reject the truth itself. They corrupt the Trinity, but that is no reason to reject the basic doctrine of the Trinity just as the fact they pervert the doctrine of original sin is no reason to reject the doctrine of original sin.

Some SDA’s reject the doctrine of the Investigative judgment because some theologians pervert the meaning and application of this bible truth. Their misunderstanding and misapplication of the doctrine is no reason to reject the doctrine itself.

Some liberals claim because of original sin, we can not obey the law. If they affirmed that we can not obey the law unless we are “born again” they would be correct. But sad to say, some claim the “born again” experience is not adequate for total victory over our sinful nature. This conclusion is bogus. Wesley said, “Sin remains, but does not reign.” That is, we still have a sinful nature, but the new nature can fully dominate and have the victory over the old nature. So, Paul says in reference to this, “I die daily.” Moral perfection is possible but it is not sinless perfection.

This issue must be clearly understood and explained to avoid a false understanding of the saints during the time of trouble. Paul affirms, “For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you do show the Lord’s death until He comes.” The communion service is relevant until the coming of Jesus. No sinless angel or sinless saint would participate in the communion service. This service ends at the second coming.

EGW affirms, “In ourselves we are sinners, but in Christ we are righteous.” This enigma is not resolved in this life. Christians are citizens of two overlapping ages and we belong to both. We begin the life of the age to come in the now. But it is not fully consummated until Jesus comes. Thus we suffer the sin affliction that intensifies the life of a believer and cause pain and suffering even when we are victorious. No one gets beyond this experience in this life.


Christians and the Sabbath

“The difference between Christ and us is not in His being exempt from our inherited natural inclinations to sin. The difference is that He did not cherish these inclinations and incorporate them into His character as we do. The temptations of the natural human heart, mine and yours, were as strong for Christ as they are for us. And, if Christ had no natural inclinations to sin, He could not be tempted like we are tempted – and one of the major links of Christ with the fallen human race would be removed and He would no longer be our true representative or example.” – Sean Pitman

Well then, Jesus isn’t God after all. He is just another sinful man who is “filled with the Spirit” who came to show us that if we will follow His example, we can be sinless just like Him.

I reject this false doctrine you and others have formulated that denies the divinity of Christ and the implications of His divinity being united to His humanity. According to you, He is just another sinful man and all the statement of EGW are out the window when she states He had no sinful inclinations or propensities. And when she states that His temptations were based on His divinity and not His sinfulness, we can ignore these comments as bogus and accept the human speculation you and others have formulated so we can be “sinless” without being “in Christ”.

Now we can join the Muslims who agree with your evaluation that Jesus is not God, but just another “prophet” who has matured to a higher level of victory over sin and is our “perfect example” but does not qualify to be our Savior who merited eternal life for us. We must become “sinless” and merit heaven for ourselves just as Jesus showed us how to do.

Sarcasm may not be commendable in every situation, but in this case, it is so obvious that you and others are so far outside the bible and even EGW it may deserve a degree of “scorn, ridicule and contempt”. It reminds me of the words of Jesus when He was challenged about His healing power and accused of working miracles by the power of Satan. He said this.

“If I work miracles by the power of Satan, by what power do you and your children work miracles?”

He went on the equate their challenge and unbelief to the unpardonable sin. Matt. 12

So I would say from that perspective, if you keep advancing a theory that denies the divinity of Christ and relegates it to some non-factor in His temptations while He was “in the flesh” you are on the road to the same end. Of course it explains how we can all be “sinless just like Jesus” if we simply stop sinning and keep the law of God.

You chide those who use bogus arguments to abandon the Sabbath and advocate Sunday. Then use bogus arguments yourself to defend your own bogus theology about the nature of Christ. They call that, “the pot calling the kettle black.”

I hope you post this comment so others may be challenged in their own understanding of bible truth about sin and the atonement. But, if not, hopefully you will at least read it yourself.

I wish you the best in your ministry, Dr. Pittman. But like many SDA’s who think they will “straighten out the world” about bible teaching, you are woefully outside the truth of sin and atonement with a faulty view of Christ and His work in His incarnation. And as I stated, you simply reflect the false doctrine of more than a few who think they will “save the church from apostasy” and defend the historic SDA faith and only magnify the obvious reality that Adventism has always been a novice movement that never matured to what God intended in the beginning.

We look more and more like the Jews who attack Jesus and His teaching when He come to reveal the principles of His Father’s kingdom. The final outcome for them is the final outcome for the SDA church unless there is some real repentance from the top down. If not, God will yet create a small community of true bible believers out of the SDA church, just as Jesus did by way of His disciples after His death and resurrection. The fact is, it don’t look good by the present evidence, but only God knows what will transpire in the ongoing future.
Bill Sorensen

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Recent Comments by Bill Sorensen

Revisiting God, Sky & Land by Fritz Guy and Brian Bull
@Sean Pitman:

Since the fall of Adam, Sean, all babies are born in sin and they are sinners. God created them. Even if it was by way of cooperation of natural law as human beings also participated in the creation process.

Paul says, “Sold in in.” and “Children of wrath just like everyone else.”

You may not like this biblical reality, but it is true none the less.

And yes, God has also provided a way of escape so that all who He has created “in sin” can be “born again” spiritually and escape their heritage of sin and shame.

I know a lot of people don’t like this idea, but it is true anyway. We are born lost with the potential to be saved if we accept Jesus and His atonement that is provisional for “whosoever will may come.”

Cain didn’t like it either and resisted the exhortation of his brother, Abel, to offer a sin offering because he was a sinner. Cain says, “No, I’ll bring a thank offering, but no sin offering. Sin is not my fault. God created me this way.”

Most people will be outside looking in because they agree with Cain but a few will be inside looking out because they agree with Abel.

Bill Sorensen


What does it take to be a true Seventh-day Adventist?
@Sean Pitman:

Well, Sean, I was not as confrontational as Wesley who said, “Those who deny the doctrine of original sin are heathen still.” … [deleted]

[Oh please…

If you want to have a real conversation, great. However, unless you actually respond substantively to the questions and counter arguments posed to you, without your needless pejoratives, I’m not going to continue posting your repetitive comments on this topic in this forum…]
-sdp


What does it take to be a true Seventh-day Adventist?
And the topic at hand is “What does it take to be a real SDA?”

It takes someone who is willing to follow the bible and its teaching in every particular. If you don’t believe this, you are not a “Protestant” SDA.

You then bring up the Trinity. Which is fine. But that is certainly not the only thing that qualifies for the topic of your thread.

So, here is what you stated to me…..”To be morally “guilty” of something, however, requires that one is consciously aware of what is right, but deliberately chooses to do what is wrong instead (James 4:17). Without the interplay of free will, there is no moral “guilt”.”

So a person is “born” selfish, proud, coveteous, vain….etc, but not “guilty” of being, selfish, proud, coveteous, vain….etc. Your limited view of “guilt” is not biblical. Half a truth is equal to a lie. There is certainly conscience guilt. But guilt is more than awareness of right and wrong. “Sin is transgression of the law”, and the law doesn’t care what you know, or don’t know. If you break the law, you are guilty of breaking the law.

Just admit the truth, Sean. But don’t accuse me of going outside the intent of this thread when it was not specifically stated as a thread about the Trinity.

Just “man up” once in a while and admit you are wrong. We are all born guilty in the eyes of God. And our ignorance does not free us from this fact.

Bill Sorensen


Science and Methodological Naturalism
Well, Sean, this article is about Dr. Taylor and his argument to negate the bible. Maybe you and Goldstein can persuade him with your arguments.

The evidences of nature function as a “law that is a schoolmaster” to lead us to the bible. “The heavens declare the glory of God…….” but still does not tell us who God is nor the function of His government concerning the moral law.

In fact, natural law is so convoluted by sin that “survival of the fittest” is the only logical conclusion.

At any rate, I wish you well in your endeavors to support the creation account in scripture.
Take care.


What does it take to be a true Seventh-day Adventist?
@Sean Pitman:

I read Kevin Paulson’s article and he “double talks” around the obvious to deny and/or ignore the reality of what the bible teaches and EGW confirms.

Babies are born guilty of sin because they are born with the spirit of sin. They have no power to do anything but sin unless and until by the special grace of God, they are given the ability to “choose”.

If you add God’s grace to the bible definition of original sin, you can make man free to act all you want. Original sin has to do with the fall of Adam and the results. It is not about God’s grace that has been added by way of the cross. So EGW has stated clearly in support of the fall and its effects on Adam’s children.

” God declares, “I will put enmity.” This enmity is not naturally entertained. When man transgressed the divine law, his nature became evil, and he was in harmony, and not at variance, with Satan. There exists naturally no enmity between sinful man and the originator of sin. Both became evil through apostasy. The apostate is never at rest, except as he obtains sympathy and support by inducing others to follow his example. For this reason, fallen angels and wicked men unite in desperate companionship. Had not God specially interposed, Satan and man would have entered into an alliance against Heaven; and instead of cherishing enmity against Satan, the whole human family would have been united in opposition to God.” {GC88 505.2}

Those who deny original sin and its effects on the children of Adam always appeal to the atonement and the grace of God. But we see that God “put” enmity between Satan and the human family.

As Luther said to Erasmus in their discussion on this matter when Erasmus claimed the will was free by way of grace,
“Once you add grace you can make the will as free as you like.”

Original sin is not about grace nor what man can do once grace is implied and involved. Original sin is about what man is after the fall apart from grace and/or God’s special action super-imposed in the situation. So, if there is no original sin, neither is there any need for grace.

Kevin Paulson convolutes the issue just like other SDA scholars by making no distinction between how man is after the fall with or without grace.

So, in light of original sin, David says, “The wicked are estranged from the womb, they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.” Ps. 58

David knows apart from God’s grace, no one can do anything but sin. Original sin highlights the necessity and value of the atonement and what it truly means to be “born again.”

Hear the words of Jesus, “That which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit, ye must be born again.”

Original sin is exactly why Jesus made this comment. No one can read and understand the bible who denies the reality of original sin and its effects on all the children of Adam. We are all born guilty of sin, even before we act. So Isaiah says, “Write the vision and make it plain, that wayfareing men, though fools, need not err therein.”

In closing, original sin is not about the atonement nor its meaning and application to humanity. It is about man as he comes from Adam lost and without hope, power, choice or any ability to do anything about his situation.