Comment on A big reason why so many people are leaving the church by Sean Pitman.
Phil Brantley,
You wrote:
“You challenged me to provide evidence arising out of Scripture that provides a rational basis for faith in the truthfulness of Scripture. Your position has been that there is no such evidence and that the Bible’s truthfulness can only be verified by external data. I gave you a list of 16 lines of evidence, all of which arise out of Scripture itself. You quarrel only with No. 2–The internal consistency of doctrine and teaching over the course of hundreds of years, as reflected in the writings of numerous authors. You suggest that the Bible is no more internally consistent than the Book of Mormon, the Qur’an, or any well-written fairy tale. Given that you have no quarrel with the other fifteen evidentiary items I list, you should concede the point: It is not “blind faith” for one to believe that the Bible is the Word of God based solely on evidence arising out of Scripture itself.
My challenge was for you to present a rational argument for the Bible as the Word of God without any appeal to external empirical evidence. You did in fact appeal to external empirical evidences in your reference to biblical prophecy as your first, sixth, and eleventh points. Beyond this, none of your other points could stand by themselves as a rational basis for the Divine origin of the Bible over any other text making the same claim because all of your other points could be presented in a completely made up novel… as is the case for the Book of Mormon.
Let’s go through your main points:
1. Prophecy (points 1, 6, and 11)
You claim that you’re not really referring to the empirical fulfillment of prophecy in real history, but only to the fulfillment of prophecy within the text itself. You have to know that a completely made up story can include internally consistent prophecies and their fulfillment within the novel – having nothing to do with actual reality.
2. Internal consistency (point 2)
Novels can be and usually are internally consistent without having any basis in actual reality.
3. A sanctuary system connecting Old and New Testaments (points 3 and 10)
Could easily have been part of a cleaver novel – a completely made up story not based in reality.
4. The courage and zeal of the disciples after the crucifixion (point 4)
Again, this sort of thing is a very common element in novels.
5. The candor and self-effacement of the characters in the Bible (point 5)
Novels often paint their heroes as flawed and human in order to make the reader more sympathetic to the characters in the novel. This need have nothing to do with reality.
6. The confirmation of the statements of others by various characters within the Bible (point 7).
Again, this could easily be done as part of a novel with one character confirming the “truth” of the statements of other characters in the novel – all having nothing to do with reality. That is why this argument is “circular”. A text cannot confirm itself. Such an argument is the very definition of a circular argument: “Why is the Bible true?” “Because one author in the Bible supports other authors.” “But how do you know that this internal testimony is valid?” “Because the Bible is the Word of God.” “But how do you know that the Bible is the Word of God.” Because one author in the Bible supports other authors.”… etc. on and on in a never ending circle.
7. Scriptures easily differentiated from the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha (point 8).
And novels, or series of novels from the same author or group of authors, can be easily differentiated from each other as well. This is not in itself evidence of the Divine. Humans can produce this effect quite easily.
8. The absence of material mistakes and contradictions of facts (point 12).
While I agree that the mistakes and contradictions in the Bible are not “material”, there is no need for this feature of the Bible to indicate a Divine origin. Human-produced novels often lack significant material mistakes or contradictions of internally-described facts.
9. The extraordinarily high quality and depth of the material (point 13);
And humans can write very high quality novels with great depth as well – without any basis in real historical events and without the need to invoke Divine inspiration.
10. The self-testimony of Scripture (point 14).
Novels and lots of other religious texts, like the Book of Mormon and the Qur’an, also testify about themselves without any basis in reality or convincing evidence of a Divine origin. Again, an appeal to self-testimony alone is an appeal to circular reasoning. As a lawyer, you should know this.
11. All major questions of life addressed by Scripture (point 15).
A human production could also do this. How about a collection of How-to books? – or a long novel dealing with various human needs and experiences having nothing to do with actual historical events?
12. The ethics of Scripture (point 16).
I actually agree with this point since the ethics of Scripture are consistent with that still small voice that speaks directly to each one of our hearts. In other words, the ethics of Scripture resonate within us, confirming their truth as they compare with what we internally have been given to know as truth regarding our ethical responsibility toward our fellow man. While these same ethics can be and have been modeled in novels as well, their Divine origin is always clear wherever such ethics are reflected because such ethics are so far above the evilness that is so often expressed in this world.
In short, the ethics of the Bible do in fact have an external basis of reference in order for us to derive their truth and their Divine or extra-worldly origin.
So, again, your evidences for the Divine origin of the Bible are either based on external realities or are simply not valid as a basis for determining the Divine origin of the Book or its reliability as a basis for a solid hope in our own individual futures – empirically real futures.
Yet, you write:
“Unless you are prepared to prove every fact and claim in Scripture by reference solely to external data–a Sisyphean endeavor if there ever was one–then you are constrained to concede the point.”
As you should know, the credibility of a witness is not based on the court’s ability to prove every factual statement of the witness against known empirical reality. If this were the case, the witness would not be needed by the court since the court would already know everything the witness knows. Rather, the credibility of the witness is based on those elements of the witness’ testimony and background that can be evaluated against empirical reality. This demonstration of credibility forms the basis upon which the court can rationally trust those elements of the witness’ testimony that cannot be directly confirmed or “proven”.
The same is true for the Bible. The metaphysical claims of the Bible or those claims that cannot be directly tested or evaluated, can be trusted based on the reliability of the Bible regarding those empirical claims of the Bible that can actually be tested and evaluated.
It is for this reason that the Book of Mormon fails to be credible. How can the Book of Mormon be trusted in those claims that cannot be directly evaluated when its claims regarding elements that can be tested and evaluated are demonstrably false? For example, the Book of Mormon claims that the American Indians are descendants of the lost tribes of Israel – that they are in fact of Jewish background. DNA evidence shows that the American Indians are actually of Asian descent; that they are not related to Abraham at all. This contradiction between claimed reality and actual reality undermines the credibility of the text and its internal claims to be of Divine origin.
If the same were true of the Bible, the Bible’s credibility as the Word of God would be rationally undermined in the same manner…
You go on to write:
“Will a modern, rational, candid, and intelligent mind necessarily be persuaded that the Bible is the Word of God? If that person lacks faith, the answer is no. Your effort to eliminate faith as a requisite for belief is puzzling, given the strong importance attached to faith by the biblical writers.”
No one can avoid making leaps of faith – not even secular atheistic scientists. We humans are subjective creatures, subject to what the world around us is telling us about itself through the element of our senses and reasoning powers. We cannot be more than what we are and therefore we cannot determine truth directly outside of the inherent limitations and weaknesses of our subjective state. We have limited knowledge and reasoning powers. That means that we are subject and even prone to error. Nothing we believe about the world in which we live, to include our beliefs about the Bible, is absolutely knowable without the potential for error.
Therefore, your assertions that you know the truth “by definition” suggests that you do not realize your own subjective nature or potential for error. Your form of faith is a rather arrogant faith that is true “by definition” – suggesting, therefore, that all other faiths are “false by definition” – – no questions asked.
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
Sean Pitman Also Commented
A big reason why so many people are leaving the church
@Sean Pitman:
Sean Pitman – Sat, 05/07/2011 – 09:08
Yakshaver,
You wrote:
“I think there is a difference between the concept of irrational (that Professor Kent is accused of encouraging) and the concept of non-rational. A big difference in my opinion, which might make the accusations [against] the writer of the article a bit… irrational.”
Certain conclusions are indeed “non-rational” rather than “irrational” – such as a personal opinion that vanilla ice cream tastes better than chocolate ice cream. No “rational” explanation is needed for this preference to be “true” for the individual. The same thing is true about personal notions in the existence of a God who has never interacted with nature in a detectable way outside of the pre-established mindless “laws of nature”. Such a belief is also a “non-rational” belief or faith.
However, when someone makes specific claims regarding the existence of a God who has actually acted in real history and continues to act in a detectable manner, one has moved from the realm of non-rationality to the realm of either rationality or irrationality.
Beyond this, non-rational beliefs aren’t really all that helpful beyond the individual since there is no rational argument that could be presented to convince anyone else of one’s own non-rational opinions or beliefs. How can I convince someone who likes chocolate ice cream that vanilla ice cream is truly better tasting? As another example, as already noted, some argue that a belief in a God who does not interact in a detectable manner within nature is a non-rational belief. Well, as Richard Dawkins famously pointed out, so is a belief in the “Celestial Teapot” or the “Flying Spaghetti Monster.” All such beliefs are technically “non-rational”. Yet, while they are not exactly “irrational”, non-rational beliefs are not very convincing or compelling for those who do not already subscribe to such beliefs.
If you really want your faith to be shared in a meaningful way with other intelligent candid minds so that they are able to gain the faith and hope in the future that you have, you should be able to provide something more appealing than non-rational “reasons” for your faith (even if you aren’t being overtly irrational). You need at least a few rational reasons for your faith that are rooted in actual empirical reality. Otherwise, your non-rational faith will most likely die with you…
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
A big reason why so many people are leaving the church
@Sean Pitman:
Sean Pitman – Sat, 05/07/2011 – 06:51
Phil Brantley,
You wrote:
“You ask the question how could an ignorant pagan come to believe that the Bible is the Word of God without becoming convinced of the Bible’s truthfulness through reference to external data. Ask Mark Finley or Doug Batchelor or any one of our Church evangelists. The question is irrelevant. My point is that for one who believes that the Bible is the Word of God, no criticism of the sacred text is permissible.
The question of determining that the Bible is truly the Word of God vs. all other competing options is not at all “irrelevant” to the concept of a rational faith in the Bible as the Word of God. Your argument that the Bible is true “by definition” can be used, in the very same manner, by those upholding the Book of Mormon or the Qur’an. There is no difference, that I can tell, in your argument vs. that of my LDS friends. None at all…
It is easy to make up a fairytale or an allegory or a novel that is internally consistent with regard to prophecies, times, places, peoples, and events – none of which are literally true. Such internal consistency is not, therefore, a rational basis for belief in the literal truth of the Bible as being the Word of God when it comes to its claims regarding my own empirical reality – current or future. Such a determination of truth requires something beyond the text itself if it is to appeal to the rational candid mind.
You yourself actually cite real historical empirically-based evidence. based on historical science, as a basis for the Bible’s historical credibility when it comes to prophecies. I knew you would do this if pressed to answer the question of determining original credibility. You cannot help but do this because if prophetic statements were only verified by the Bible itself, having no basis in (or even in conflict with) known external historical reality, they would carry very little if any weight as evidences for Divine origin.
As I’ve mentioned before, this is one of the main problems with the Book of Mormon, its prophetic statements, while largely being internally consistent, conflict with known historical reality. It is for this reason that many, like me, completely dismiss the metaphysical claims of the Book of Mormon – because those claims dealing with physical reality can be so clearly falsified.
If the same is true of the Bible, how on Earth can you expect a rational person to still hold to the notion that the Bible is in fact the Word of God? – without any appeal to external empirical evidences / reality? That’s simply not a rational position in my book… and will not appeal to most candidly rational intelligent minds out there.
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
A big reason why so many people are leaving the church
@Professor Kent:
Phil didn’t actually answer my question, but dodged it yet again. My response is as follows:
Phil Brantley,
You listed off a number of evidences that, “support the claim that the Scripture is the Word of God.” What I find strange about your list is that you include numerous evidence that are dependent upon extra-biblical empirical information, to include historically-fulfilled prophecies and an understanding of various elements of the text that is dependent upon extra-biblical historical knowledge of the existence of people, times and places… all dependent upon the historical sciences.
Yet, you go on to explain:
“You should understand that my belief that Scripture is the Word of God necessarily precedes my hermeneutical approach to Scripture. In contrast, your hermeneutic of criticism necessarily precedes resolution of the question whether Scripture is the Word of God. And because external data is always subject to change, the critic never arrives at the position that Scripture is the Word of God.”
It seems to me like you confuse epistemology (how we know what we know) with hermeneutics (how to interpret or determine the intended meaning of a given text). While certainly being related, and even interdependent, they aren’t the same thing.
The confusion I have with your arguments in this and other forums is that you seem to suggest that one’s epistemological conclusion that the Bible is in fact the Word of God cannot rationally “precede” one’s hermeneutic understanding of the text itself… that one must somehow definitively decide, without any question, that the Bible is the Word of God before one has actually interpreted what the author of the text was trying to say and if that interpretation does in fact match key elements of known physical reality – i.e., if what the author was in fact trying to say is most likely true or false.
For example, given your approach one could conclude, a priori that the Book of Mormon, or the Qur’an, is really the true Word of God. Then, after coming to this conclusion, one would then proceed to actually read and interpret the Book of Mormon, or the Qur’an, according to one’s pre-established epistemology that the Book of Mormon, or the Qur’an, is in fact the true Word of God. It wouldn’t matter, then, if DNA evidence showed that the American Indians really aren’t “descendants from the lost tribes of Israel”, as the Book of Mormon claims, but are, rather, descendants from an Asian background. After all, since the Book of Mormon would be “true by definition”, such DNA evidence should not effect one’s faith in the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon as being the Word of God – right?
This is the circular element in your argument. The very same argument could be used to simply declare any text to be the true Word of God without any means to detect if one has in fact made an error in this “by definition” or “just-so” declaration.
If no form of empirical evidence, to include historical knowledge, should have any power to change your epistemological view that the Bible is the True Word of God, then it really means nothing that you list off numerous empirically-based evidences that do in fact support this view. Your basic argument is that such evidences are not needed – that the Bible, by itself, without any reference to any such external empirical evidence or seeming reality, can stand alone as a self-evident revelation of God’s will.
In short, I’ve specifically asked you, several times now, how one can rationally determine that the Bible, and not the Book of Mormon or the Qur’an, is the the true word of God without any reference to any external empirical evidences, and you’ve yet to provide an answer to this question – or to even directly address this question. You’ve not presented any reason, that I can tell, whereby one who did not grow up as a Christian automatically believing the Bible to be God’s Word could rationally recognize the Bible as the true Word of God among many competing options all making the very same claim… without any reference or appeal to external empirical evidences of any kind.
Do you have an answer to this particular question or not?
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
Recent Comments by Sean Pitman
Science and Methodological Naturalism
Very interesting passage. After all, if scientists are honest with themselves, scientific methodologies are well-able to detect the existence of intelligent design behind various artifacts found in nature. It’s just the personal philosophy of scientists that makes them put living things and the origin of the fine-tuned universe “out of bounds” when it comes to the detection of intelligent design. This conclusion simply isn’t dictated by science itself, but by a philosophical position, a type of religion actually, that strives to block the Divine Foot from getting into the door…
Revisiting God, Sky & Land by Fritz Guy and Brian Bull
@Ron:
Why is it that creationists are afraid to acknowledge the validity of Darwinism in these settings? I don’t see that these threaten a belief in God in any way whatsoever.
The threat is when you see no limitations to natural mindless mechanisms – where you attribute everything to the creative power of nature instead of to the God of nature.
God has created natural laws that can do some pretty amazing things. However, these natural laws are not infinite in creative potential. Their abilities are finite while only God is truly infinite.
The detection of these limitations allows us to recognize the need for the input of higher-level intelligence and creative power that goes well beyond what nature alone can achieve. It is here that the Signature of God is detectable.
For those who only hold a naturalistic view of the universe, everything is attributed to the mindless laws of nature… so that the Signature of God is obscured. Nothing is left that tells them, “Only God or some God-like intelligent mind could have done this.”
That’s the problem when you do not recognize any specific limitations to the tools that God has created – when you do not recognize the limits of nature and what natural laws can achieve all by themselves.
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
Revisiting God, Sky & Land by Fritz Guy and Brian Bull
@Bill Sorensen:
Since the fall of Adam, Sean, all babies are born in sin and they are sinners. God created them. Even if it was by way of cooperation of natural law as human beings also participated in the creation process.
God did not create the broken condition of any human baby – neither the physical or moral brokenness of any human being. God is responsible for every good thing, to include the spark or breath of life within each one of us. However, He did not and does not create those things within us that are broken or bad.
“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?'” Matthew 13:27-28
Of course, all humans are indeed born broken and are in a natural state of rebellion against God. However, God is not the one who created this condition nor is God responsible for any baby being born with any kind of defect in character, personality, moral tendency, or physical or genetic abnormality. God did not create anyone with such brokenness. Such were the natural result of rebellion against God and heading the temptations of the “enemy”… the natural result of a separation from God with the inevitable decay in physical, mental, and moral strength.
Of course, the ones who are born broken are not responsible for their broken condition either. However, all of us are morally responsible for choosing to reject the gift of Divine Grace once it is appreciated… and for choosing to go against what we all have been given to know, internally, of moral truth. In other words, we are responsible for rebelling against the Royal Law written on the hearts of all mankind.
This is because God has maintained in us the power to be truly free moral agents in that we maintain the Power to choose, as a gift of God (Genesis 3:15). We can choose to accept or reject the call of the Royal Law, as the Holy Spirit speaks to all of our hearts…
Remember the statement by Mrs. White that God is in no wise responsible for sin in anyone at any time. God is working to fix our broken condition. He did not and does not create our broken condition. Just as He does not cause Babies to be born with painful and lethal genetic defects, such as those that result in childhood leukemia, He does not cause Babies to be born with defects of moral character either. God is only directly responsible for the good, never the evil, of this life.
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
Revisiting God, Sky & Land by Fritz Guy and Brian Bull
@Ron:
Again, your all-or-nothing approach to the claims of scientists isn’t very scientific. Even the best and most famous of scientists has had numerous hair-brained ideas that were completely off base. This fact does not undermine the good discoveries and inventions that were produced.
Scientific credibility isn’t based on the person making the argument, but upon the merits of the argument itself – the ability of the hypothesis to gain predictive value when tested. That’s it.
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
Gary Gilbert, Spectrum, and Pseudogenes
Don’t be so obtuse here. We’re not talking about publishing just anything in mainstream journals. I’ve published several articles myself. We’re talking about publishing the conclusion that intelligent design was clearly involved with the origin of various artifactual features of living things on this planet. Try getting a paper that mentions such a conclusion published…
Sean Pitman
www.DetectingDesign.com
